the fact that vanilla and BC bosses had less mechanics doesn't make them any easier. All these mechanics in current content is just annoying, not particularly difficult or enjoyable.
Some of the funnest fights were patchwerk, vael, KT, Nightbane (kara boss), and elegon (imo). They weren't really mechanical but took a lot of dps/hps. You had to be on top of things. These new fights are run here, soak this, dispel that, click on this, now go back to dps. But after you beat the 3 or 4 mechanics they're easy. This excludes heroic raiding of course.
It's either too simple or too complicated, depends on who you ask...
learning mechanics in wow is piss easy compared to anything in real life, so there should be no problems
A bit of civility and respect for others opinions goes a long way toward getting any respect in return. Overly hostile, profane and insulting posts are a sign that people don't really have anything to say. Profanity is best served out in very small doses.
"Forum drama exists because people enjoy creating it." - ML/2013
Sunwell had one difficulty, which was comparable to heroic modes today. So in that sense it was harder, since only heroic mode guilds (as we know them today) even stood a chance.
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Same goes now that I switched guild from a guild that was still in normals to a guild that are in heroics, I was called in late to Thok Heroic as they wanted to two tank it instead of one tank it. I got into the group. I had briefly checked heroic mode changes for all the "farm" bosses as I did not wish to wipe the raid on farm, but I had not checked Thok at all. It was my guilds first night on Thok (they had been there like 1 hour before me max). I got in and basically asked, what do I do? They just told me, stand on this marker and pick up the bats.
My response was of course "Okay!" as it was the first time I raided in the guild.
In my mind I though "Huh? There are bats!?!?!?!?!!?!"
Quickly I had to browse to the dungeon journal and noticed that the same bats (and the yeti) that are during the trash also spawns during the encounter. After that I felt kinda confident. I did my tanking, only did 5 pulls before calling it but got it down to 40% and looked fairly simple. Now, I did not really jump in completely blind, I knew the normal tactics, but in the same way you can learn tactics in LFR for flex, and in flex for normal.
I feel like the need to do homework and really study tactics is fabricated by many players. The only time I really read up tactics is when I am going to kill a boss that the rest of the raid already killed, since wiping other people on bosses they consider "farm" is usually bad. But if you are going to progress a new fight with your guild, you do not need to know 100% what to do. Reading up the basics, and by that I really mean the basics, of a fight is completely fine. Heck, going in completely blind is fine aswell. A quick 2 minute check in the dungeon journal is fine for most fights. When I did paragons of the klaxxi the first time I actually opened a video guide, I closed it after 10 seconds, it was to long. Instead I opened to dungeon journal and checked every mechanic flagged for "Tank warning!" as I am a tank.
The only abilities I cared about those was the injection, which bosses give eachother a damage amplifcation and korvens stun. With that knowledge (keep AM for for injection, X and Y bosses need to be on different tanks and korven hurts the tank), I performed my role without any major flaw. That was all I needed to know about the fight from my tank PoV. The rest was the details which was figured out during the first and second pull.
That is why I feel like this "need" to study fights is just made up by players that have a long learning curve and/or can not adapt to fights. The "need" to study fights is only there if you are slow on learning new mechanics when actually doing the fights.
Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.
I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.
But in the end has nothing changed, the raid leader needs to spend some more time with tactics, the rest just should know what's more or less going to happen and then you're ready to try a new boss. It's anyway weird to expect, that the same tactics work for all guilds. Some have better healers, other tanks ...
But I also have to agree that I miss the gear checks (at least on normal and heroic mode). They have been quite fun and it was never ever about: "You need 3 more items before beeing able to do that". If you had very good players you were always able to kill gear-checks without many issues and hitting a wall. But the less skill in you raid, the better gear you needed and that's what I liked (never beeing in a hardcore guild myself) and it gave you actually a reason to get new gear. If all is about "skill" (I still don't get what it's about skill if you have to follow the order "don't stand in colored stuff unless told otherwise), then why bother farming gear anyways?
I feel like raiding in it's current form is actually very fun and polished, of course there is occasionally a gamebreaking glitch that really sucks to deal with, or renders a fight impossible (im looking at you heroic galakras ><). But other than that, i find it very enjoyable.
Paragons of the Klaxxi is more a gear check than anything else. It's important to know that on Paragons you're actually only dealing with maybe 5-6 abilities at any given time. You can ignore, as DPS/Healers, any of the "tank specific" stuff and as tanks you can ignore pretty much all of the "dps/healer" specific stuff. In reality let's say you've got the Hisek, Rik'kal, Skeer combo - as a raid member this is what you need to worry about (normal mode only):
- Multi Shot: ignore it, it's going to happen, goes through LOS and you can't do anything about it.
- Aim: need to stack / use personals to survive (Deterrence, Dispersion, etc), can ignore as tank pretty much.
- Genetic Alteration: stacking debuff to prevent solo tanking, ignore it
- Injection: tank mechanic, ignore if DPS/healers
- Mutate Amber Scorption: DPS mechanic, ignore if tanks. Healers need to be aware to heal this person.
- Hewn: stacking debuff to prevent solo tanking, ignore it
- Bloodletting: general can ignore adds and just kill boss before they reach boss (if necessary you only need to kill the 1 which goes for the Paragon you're killing). Tanks/healers can ignore this.
So in this combo tanks have to be wary of 1 mechanic (Injection), healers need to be wary of 2 skills (Aim/Mutate Amber Scorpion) and DPS need to be wary of 2 or 3 skills (Mutate Amber Scorpion, Aim, Bloodletting [if you're bothering to kill bloods]).
Explain to me how this is even remotely difficult? It's nothing but a gear check.
From what i remember from raiding in Vanilla and BC it wasn't so much boss mechanics as you needed good enough dps and healing+tanks that can hold aggro. Back in those days pumping out even average dps and healing wasn't easy. Mana issues were a big deal and so it wasnt very uncommon for some dps to be told "If you take damage you wont be healed so bandage". The simple fact is Aggro,Survivability,Healing,Mana Management (whats left of it) and DPS have become so much easier that blizzard has to make bosses far more complex then they used to or it would be a face roll for the elites. Remember when BT came out? It got cleared in a few days some of it was they had been on the ptr but imo it was also a key turning point when our characters were too powerful for simple fights.
Last edited by Sensui06; 2013-09-27 at 07:55 AM.
You chose one of the simplest bosses of the tier and compared it to the most complex boss in a tier.. Of course there'll be a huge difference. There's 9 bosses with 3 mechanics each, some of them behaving differently in 10, 25, normal, heroic and flex, so that adds even more "complexity" to the fight.
That doesn't say anything about the encounters because obviously if you take sunwell raiders, give them 5+ years more experience with the same game, and then let them re-do the same content, they're going to do better. Like I said, you can make that comparison with anything and it would still be true.
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Back then (Before PTR) most guilds who got the world 1st got it by doing things that would lose you to kill today.
I can't remember the last time an important boss in TBC was killed in a legit way because the fight was to hard to do it the normal way.
Al'ar was killed in a way would cheese any fight.
Kael got nerfed to shit twice before he was killed
Vashj bugged out and was a free kill due to a bug
KJ was killed by mages being smart to ignore an important part of the fight
The list goes on even into Wrath and Cata. People knew what bosses did, but they just dumbed it down,
Now with the DJ you can see EVERYTHING.
I listened to a podcast for Druids (TeamWaffle Podcast) recently and the Resto Druid actually brought this subject up. She said how she's working all day, then comes home right in time for the raid more or less. And that with the increased amount of complex abilities and things to watch out for/monitor, she feels she no longer have the mental bandwidth to actually keep up.
And I have to say, that progressing through Heroics now compared to TBC and Wrath does require a lot more concentration imo. If you're tired, it gets hard not to make mistakes that can kill you.
I know Blizz has said, that they want fights to be more about individual responsibility rather than a patchwork fight. I don't mind that, cause it promote skills and awareness over gear. But this is also the reason that a lot of casual/Normal mode players are struggling on fights that are supposed to be somewhat easy. They lack the ability to manage their rotation, watch out for stuff on the ground while also attacking the right target, interrupting, dispelling and moving at the same time.
As I said, I like that skill>gear matters more but I think there has to be a limit. Horridon, Megaera, Durumu and Lei Shen in LFR - remember how many people would just fuck up and die? I think Blizz have to be careful not pushing the whole "we want complex mechanics" too much - or at least leave some of them to the Heroics, where people are expected to be able to handle it.
DPS/Healers have much less health and usually much more to look out for.
Usually, when you put a tank into a DPS position (off-spec, alt), they tend to die...oops!
I actually miss simple DPS check fights.
Last edited by Tekkommo; 2013-09-27 at 11:34 AM.
Wall of text crits for TONS OF DAMAGE!
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