1. #1

    Performance and progression association

    TLDR: Can in any way individual performance be associated with expected progression?

    As my guild struggles with activity (amongst other detterants) and we are often forced to pug, and considering we have a core group of players which are getting ranked or miss it slightly in most encounters, WITHOUT log whoring, which means we actually play to down the boss, can we draw any conclusions of what our progression should be, at least for those particular ranked players supposed they moved into a more active enviroment (or found more active teamates).

    Or is my attempt to associate individual performance with progression flawed?

    Our current progression is 8/14 normal.
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

  2. #2
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I hope I'm understanding the question properly.

    Speaking honestly it's hard to tell. You can be a good player in a crappy guild and you won't have progression to show for it, so nobody will know that you're good because you haven't been given the chance to shine; in fact I wonder how many decent players get ignored and languish in mediocrity because they could never realize their true potential due to being turned down from better guilds due to lack of personal progression and/or gear from being in a bad guild or a string of bad guilds.

    On the flipside you can be a poor player in a good team and get high progression (I'm loathe to say "carried" because that implies being useless; I mean more a situation where you are the weak link while still doing decently and the team is good enough to cover your weaknesses).

    Ultimately I would say that logs speak for themselves if applying to a higher-end guild, regardless of the actual progression. For instance if you are consistently ranking high on those 8 fights, equal or better than players in heroic-mode guilds, then you should have no issue applying to those guilds because the proof is in the pudding.
    NOBLESHIELD
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  3. #3
    Depends on a lot of factors and it's hard to say even then.

    If your "core" isn't big at all and you are forced to rely on pugs who have important roles I.E. healing/tanking then most of the time you will have poor progression no matter what you do. At the same time however, if your pug is "workable" with and your raid group isn't able to compensate for him either with calling stuff out on vent or hand holding him, then there's that too.

    I pug on my warrior alt a lot and get into guild groups often. Most times, I notice that a lot of people seem to think they are better than they really are. Just putting out numbers or parses doesn't automatically equate you to a good player at all. If you've played with a truly good player, they tend to shine on fights with personal responsibility and more often than not are doing the small things you don't notice like good raid cooldown usage without being told to do it or covering for someone on a mechanic. Being able to figure out what is causing wipes and what needs to be fixed as well is important as a player imo, but too often people simply rely on their raid leaders to tell them what the problem is or go the easier route - just blaming DPS/healing/tanking without looking at the full picture.

    So in conclusion, I would have to say yes and no. Judging from your post though, you seem to view ranks as a way to differentiate how good players are - I think you need to rethink that because any player can rank given the right gear and circumstances on a fight. That's not to say DPS numbers don't matter. I'm a firm believer that it's easy for any good DPS to focus on surviving and doing good damage - but it takes a great DPS to be able to survive while squeezing out every bit of damage. Of course, that's not necessary in normal and only viable for certain heroic fights, and even then most guilds (even the top ones) would opt for the good DPS who doesn't risk it most of the time.
    Last edited by Angelicat; 2013-10-04 at 07:11 PM.

  4. #4
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Ranks are kind of like putting your hand in water and commign to the conclusion of if its cold, hot , or warm. It does not however tell you why the temp is that level or exactly what temp it is!

    Log's on the other hand are a HUGE key to seing who is really playing well and who may be meeter whoring. If I see some one doing crap tons of dmg but at the same time taking crap tons due to just standing still and doing a rotation while leting healers keep them up i do not think they are good. However if i see some one with lowerd dps but there buffs cast tab is full of abilities that would help the group on that fight I auto think "well there is teh sign of a good player". For myself a good player shines mostly in the buffs cast tab than any other... that is where you see if they are usign the tools there class has / provides!

  5. #5
    to make the question even simpler

    Can we say that, XXX, constantly ranks in all 8 bosses, therefore he should be in a 2/14 HC guild or a 5/14 HC guild or a 14/14 normal guild etc?
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    to make the question even simpler

    Can we say that, XXX, constantly ranks in all 8 bosses, therefore he should be in a 2/14 HC guild or a 5/14 HC guild or a 14/14 normal guild etc?
    Since my post was a TLDR, I will make it short as well.

    No.

  7. #7
    So in conclusion, I would have to say yes and no. Judging from your post though, you seem to view ranks as a way to differentiate how good players are
    To correct the misconception, I've taken the grasping the mechanics of the fight for granted for players that are capable on pulling big numbers. I am not ignoring perception as non mattering.
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    To correct the misconception, I've taken the grasping the mechanics of the fight for granted for players that are capable on pulling big numbers. I am not ignoring perception as non mattering.
    The problem is that in normal, you don't get a lot of fights that require a lot of personal responsibility on staying alive or doing a raid wiping mechanic, so it's tough to say for sure.

    I guess I should change my answer a bit though now that I think about it. For most average guilds about to finish garrosh/start heroics, I'm sure ranking on fights is a decent factor in getting to join them especially if they don't really check logs in-depth or have a way to tell if a class is playing right, but the real reason I said no in my opinion is because to stay in a guild especially during progression, you typically need to exhibit good qualities that mesh well with the guild (I.E. your personality etc) and also how you fare during progression is important as well. Some people tend to do well on farm fights but not progression fights since they take longer to learn said fight.

    Though most guilds typically don't have a choice to be TOO picky and thus will pick you up as long as you fit one of the criteria above and aren't a burden.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Angelicat View Post
    The problem is that in normal, you don't get a lot of fights that require a lot of personal responsibility on staying alive or doing a raid wiping mechanic, so it's tough to say for sure.

    I guess I should change my answer a bit though now that I think about it. For most average guilds about to finish garrosh/start heroics, I'm sure ranking on fights is a decent factor in getting to join them especially if they don't really check logs in-depth or have a way to tell if a class is playing right, but the real reason I said no in my opinion is because to stay in a guild especially during progression, you typically need to exhibit good qualities that mesh well with the guild (I.E. your personality etc) and also how you fare during progression is important as well. Some people tend to do well on farm fights but not progression fights since they take longer to learn said fight.

    Though most guilds typically don't have a choice to be TOO picky and thus will pick you up as long as you fit one of the criteria above and aren't a burden.
    You say average yet only 13% of raiding guilds have killed garrosh so far :P

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ItcheeBeard View Post
    You say average yet only 13% of raiding guilds have killed garrosh so far :P
    Well my bad, I don't know what the average is haha.

  11. #11
    Having a stable raid team makes a large difference in progression. It's entirely possible that 10 consistent B players will have more success than a team of 5 A players and 5 random pugs.

    Worry less about where you should be, and focus on recruiting enough "decent" players that your raid stabilizes and becomes consistent from week to week. Then your "good" players will be able to shine and help carry the team forward.

  12. #12
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    Having a stable raid team makes a large difference in progression. It's entirely possible that 10 consistent B players will have more success than a team of 5 A players and 5 random pugs.

    Worry less about where you should be, and focus on recruiting enough "decent" players that your raid stabilizes and becomes consistent from week to week. Then your "good" players will be able to shine and help carry the team forward.
    I think this bears repeating and is very good advice. If you always have to pug 1-2 spots, or if you never are quite sure which combination of your DPS will be on each week (both things I experience myself), those are issues that should be fixed before worrying about "Could XXX be better progressed than we currently are". A consistent and reliable team is always going to perform better than having 8 dedicated people but having to pug a healer and a DPS every week.
    NOBLESHIELD
    Raids & Dungeons Moderator | Twitch Stream | Wayniac#1291


  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    Having a stable raid team makes a large difference in progression. It's entirely possible that 10 consistent B players will have more success than a team of 5 A players and 5 random pugs.

    Worry less about where you should be, and focus on recruiting enough "decent" players that your raid stabilizes and becomes consistent from week to week. Then your "good" players will be able to shine and help carry the team forward.
    I can't say I am worried, I am more "curious" of what is the potential of a OR a group of "A players". Will they fulfill it? Who knows
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

  14. #14
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Short version of the answer you want

    If you want to know if you are better than your guild and should be further advanced based on personal performance app to guilds that are further than you in progress if you are accepted into those guilds then yes you are better than the one you currently are in!

    Pretty easy way to test it!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    Short version of the answer you want

    If you want to know if you are better than your guild and should be further advanced based on personal performance app to guilds that are further than you in progress if you are accepted into those guilds then yes you are better than the one you currently are in!

    Pretty easy way to test it!

    The discussion, although influenced by my personal experience, is NOT about me. Your assumption about the answer I want would be similar to someone making a forum topic about drug addiction and you calling him a junkie.
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

  16. #16
    I think Angelicat has given you the best responses so far tbh. I don't think the effort to extrapolate potential progression based on individual performance is flawed but the issue is that I suspect you have no idea what the individual skill level of your players are. Over my years as a GM I have recruited plenty of players from less progressed guilds who did good numbers and always seemed to be the last alive, however when they joined us it turned out they weren't nearly as good as they seemed. I am sure this would also be the case for some of the best players in my guild now if they were to join an 11/14 hc guild.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelicat View Post
    If you've played with a truly good player, they tend to shine on fights with personal responsibility and more often than not are doing the small things you don't notice like good raid cooldown usage without being told to do it or covering for someone on a mechanic.
    This quote from Angelicat says it pretty well imo, I would also add that skill can often be about very subtle things like positioning yourself in such a way that it helps with the positioning of the entire team and not just so you survive/ maximise dps. This comes from understanding the fight and also the requirements of the other players in terms of positioning to help them maximise their performance.

    Having said all this raid progression is often determined by the worst skilled members of the team so if you are having to pug you are almost certainly better than your progression suggests.

  17. #17
    In most circumstances performance will correlate directly with progression, but it doesn't mean anything if people don't show up or you have a really weak link (or links).
    Quote Originally Posted by Masith View Post
    Having said all this raid progression is often determined by the worst skilled members of the team so if you are having to pug you are almost certainly better than your progression suggests.
    Pretty much this^.

    This one time at Brand Camp, I got Singed.

  18. #18
    Flawed math expansion:

    Could we say 125 wol rank spots, 33 specs making it 4125 players ranked for a particular boss, expanding it to 6000-7000 players to include those that slightly missed the rank. Expanding it to 6000 * 8 bosses ~= 50000 players ranked or just missed it. (although I assume there will be lots of duplicate ranks for different bosses so the number might be less)

    Assuming each guild is 10 man, would a ranked person equate to a top5000 guild which is currently according to wow-progress 10/14 or 11/14 normal, and therefore make such a statement that:

    A borderline ranked person at 5/10/2013 should be around the above level of progression (10/14, 11/14 normal), give or take.
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

  19. #19
    No you can't, because you're using only one metric - DPS rankings on normal mode encounters - to predict the future and to evaluate performance. It's such an obvious fact that I feel silly pointing it out: good raiders aren't measured only by WoL rankings on farm fights. There's a whole bunch of other stuff to consider, like survivability, awareness. Some traits for an excellent raider extend even beyond the game itself, such as reliability, tenacity, and resourcefulness.

    As for the correlation between strict individual skill and guild progression, it's about as reliable as a pitcher's W/L record in baseball. That is to say, not very, at best an approximation.

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