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  1. #201
    "Has raiding becomes too autistic?"

    I guess this is what happens as more and more people become literate with each passing generation.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    I simply said WoW hasn't added anything that increased upon the skillset required by gamers in general. As far as keyboard turning goes, it was as silly back in the late 90s as it is today. Keyboard turners were as easy to spot in Classic as they were in Quake and Counter-Strike. Even my semi-hardcore guild forced people to use a mouse, or we'd drop them.

    As far as focus on the screen goes, most bullet hell games (they were popular back in the 80s and 90s) had plenty of things to focus on on the screen. They required you to think multiple steps ahead of time to maximize not only your damage avoidance, but also your damage output. They generally also required you to completely learn the 'encounters' you were up against to win.

    As far as teamplay goes, you needed more team coordination in games such as Quake and Counter-Strike than you do in World of Warcraft. You may have more players in a raiding group, but your opponents were much more dynamic in the two shooters. Both games also forced very high situational awareness, reaction times and split second decision making upon you. Quake in particular required you to be very good at avoiding fast paced projectiles from multiple sources at once.

    Gaming honestly hasn't changed that much in the past 20 years. The graphics may be better, but as a 40 year old gamer, the set of skills I picked up in the 80s and 90s continues to serve me very well even today. I haven't had to learn anything new since I was a teenager, as all I ever have to do is adapt my old-timer knowledge to new scenarios.
    Quake and the like are more comparable to pvp in WoW than the pve side of things... and while those games certainly require more mouse precision, and player movement is probably more important, there's also far fewer variables to take into account, because at best, everyone has a rather limited capacity arsenal. It's really a different thing entirely.

    I dunno, you and I are about the same age, and I think that WoW requires a good deal more 'multitasking' than most arcade games from back then, even if it's at the cost of less sheer reaction time capability or precision. Maybe I'm just getting old :P

    On a side note, as a kid I always used to be in awe of people that could play Defender or Stargate REALLY well. One of the few arcade games that had a lot of variables going on at once, and precise movement wasn't the easiest thing to pick up.

  3. #203
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    comparing a mechanics fight to a patchwork damage check fight... what are you even trying to argue dude?
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  4. #204
    Deleted
    thing is, ppl are comparing vanilla and bc raiding to MoP raiding with current class abilities which is a rather stupid thing to do as those things cant be compared as the classes where in 2 entirely different places ability-wise. What ppl need to do is compare vanilla and bc raiding and the abilities they had back then to the MoP raiding(the HP bloat as well for that matter) and abilities they have now and if you do that and then factor in the fact that those fights were only "normal" versions, then it becomes a rather different discussion.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by DetectiveJohnKimble View Post
    "Has raiding becomes too autistic?"

    I guess this is what happens as more and more people become literate with each passing generation.
    I find the autistic part....lacking..... Overcomplicated = not autistic, so many things to remember, focus on, is not a strong point of autistic people, details, man, details.

  6. #206
    Definitely think raiding has gotten more complex as time goes by, but a fight like Brutallus was strictly a gear check, it's silly to compare it to other fights. Hell, compare something like Shade of Aran to Garrosh Hellscream, the amount of mechanics are pretty much the same lol. Plus Aran had ring of fire, in which you couldn't move, at least with something like that you had some personal responsibility in the fight. You don't see much stuff like that now if you aren't a tank, or aren't doing hard modes.

  7. #207
    I woudn't say that a fight like Kil'Jaeden (honestly I would say it was quite abit harder but ya NM's) is that different from a fight like Garrosh nm in terms of how much is going.
    Maybe I remember Kil'jaeden pre 3.0 harder then he really was but ya.
    Last edited by Nuckels; 2013-09-28 at 08:18 PM.

  8. #208
    Convolution and complexity =/= difficulty.

    People seem to have a problem differentiating between the two.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

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  9. #209
    The fights aren't harder...there are just WAY more things to know about a fight.
    All fight mechanics are planned, and can be dealt with in predictable manners.
    That being said, the amount of knowledge a raider has to know for each boss is honestly getting a little out of hand.
    There are so many mechanics for each fight, that, in order to know every aspect of the fight requires a lot of studying.
    Look at some of the fights in the dungeon journal....there are some that are ~10 pages long!

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Quake and the like are more comparable to pvp in WoW than the pve side of things... and while those games certainly require more mouse precision, and player movement is probably more important, there's also far fewer variables to take into account, because at best, everyone has a rather limited capacity arsenal. It's really a different thing entirely.
    I think this might show a bit of a lack of understanding of just how a typical team match plays out in a game like Quake. You could take 20 practice games against the exact same team and none of the games would be close to similar. You could also take 20 games against a team and every match would be almost identical. It all depends on the team you go up against, as well as any disparity in skill level. Generally speaking, no two games are the same, and most vary by quite a bit.

    Of course it is all very subjective, but I honestly can't agree with you that a typical raid encounter varies more from try to try than a typical team match in Quake. I'm not saying raid encounters are easy, I'm simply disagreeing with the proposition that a typical raid encounter has more variables to it than a typical 4v4 match in a fast paced FPS like Quake. A typical raid encounter in WoW never does something I don't expect, while a good opponent in Quake will always keep me guessing.



    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I dunno, you and I are about the same age, and I think that WoW requires a good deal more 'multitasking' than most arcade games from back then, even if it's at the cost of less sheer reaction time capability or precision. Maybe I'm just getting old :P
    No, you're right in that raiding requires more multi-tasking from the player than your typical arcade game. Yet there were plenty of video games much older than WoW that required the player to multi-task. I suppose most people learn to multi-task outside of video gaming, to be honest. Just playing a game of soccer requires you to keep close attention to your opponent, to the ball, to your own team mates as well as many other things. The same goes for many other sports. You would certainly be very hard pressed to convince me that gamers today are somehow better at multi-tasking than gamers back in the mid 00s.

  11. #211
    I made account specifically to post this

    go to
    warcrafthuntersunion

    find "back-in-my-day-wiping" post (sorry i can't post links)

    it's a blog post about raiding in molten core. tell me your brain doesn't hurt after reading that.

    yes, encounters are more complex now but they are not harder. most of the fights now are just identifying what is the important thing in the fight that your raid will fail on, and then spending time figuring out how to counter that thing.

    (Also I would compare a fight like Ambershaper in HoF, or Rag in FL to Lady Vashj and you know how many guilds failed on those.)

  12. #212
    You can't make a boss as simple the bosses in Vanilla and expect it to satisfy players these day. Players has experience all kinds of mechanics. Things will need to be more and more complex to keep up with them.
    Last edited by Wildmoon; 2013-09-29 at 06:00 PM.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Khiyone View Post
    1. Mechanically complex doesn't equal hard. Even Jin'rokh looks pretty complex on paper. . .
    2. Not all classes were like that, and I can easily pick examples of classes/specs that have extremely simple rotations (2H Frost, Cataclysm Arcane mages say hello).
    Except that, you know, mechanically complex does equal hard. Especially when you have to coordinate the entire raid to shift and handle it as a group perfectly. Individual mechanics aren't hard, anyone can master a mechanic when they only need to worry about themselves. Having 20 people move into exact positions and rotating perfect interrupts within 15 second intervals while spreading and collapsing efficiently is hard. Running out of a pool to get dispelled so you don't wipe the raid and dodging orbs is not. It's embarrassing if you mess it up, but that doesn't make it difficult. This is why Jin'rokh is so easy, and no, it doesn't look hard on paper. It looks like a vanilla fight on paper.

    That's on top of more complex dps rotations. Most mechanically complex fights have a built-in gear check themselves, the gear check being that if you can push certain dps thresholds then the mechanics become significantly easier or you don't have to deal with them. All rotations were a joke in vanilla/bc and to a point - in wrath.

    Sure, there are fairly simple rotations still around, but they are the minority and rarely the optimal spec. There isn't a single spec left in the game where you can push only 2 buttons and do remotely competitive damage.

    Healing is a different story.

  14. #214
    Agreed OP, its bloaded boss designs. I want to keep it more simple, but have thoes few mechanics be visually great (Like Ragnaros dance), painful and meaningfull.
    Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/djuntas ARPG - RTS - MMO

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Tstr88 View Post
    Sure, there are fairly simple rotations still around, but they are the minority and rarely the optimal spec. There isn't a single spec left in the game where you can push only 2 buttons and do remotely competitive damage.
    Just out of curiosity, do you believe gamers back in the mid 00s would have a hard time picking up modern day rotations? I can only speak for myself when I say rotations became largely automatic to me almost instantly. Even on my guardian druid, who had more of a priority queue than a rotation. You're not the first person I've seen mention rotations in this context, yet I can't imagine the average gamer having a hard time becoming good at button rotations.

  16. #216
    Bosses weren't as hard as they are now but on the other hand classes were very weak, much weaker from a defensive pov, e.g. rogues didn't have cos and feint didn't reduce aoe dmg, mages coul get ice block by going deep into frost tree, shield wall was very strong but had 30 min cd, palas sucked at everything but healing and dispelling, many bosses an trash were immune to some schools of magic (fire mage on ragnaros? gg) and many required a specific resistance gear on tanks (or all raid members) to avoid getting blown up, there was no mass ress and trash had shorter repop time, all of this made raiding not really more difficult, but it made it more tedious for sure.

    With that said, it was impossible back in vanilla even for a hardcore guild to clear all the content in a couple of days.
    You think you do, but you don't ©
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  17. #217
    The problem I have with gear check fights is they seem to go hand in hand with lets stack 5 warlocks and 5 mages (although that does still happen to a degree today but mostly only for the best of the best guilds). If a lot more fights were patchwerk style where certain classes were significantly ahead on damage then you can almost guarantee class stacking.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    Just out of curiosity, do you believe gamers back in the mid 00s would have a hard time picking up modern day rotations? I can only speak for myself when I say rotations became largely automatic to me almost instantly. Even on my guardian druid, who had more of a priority queue than a rotation. You're not the first person I've seen mention rotations in this context, yet I can't imagine the average gamer having a hard time becoming good at button rotations.
    It depends on what level you're playing at. Meeting high dps thresholds in current tiers requires paying alot of attention for MOST specs. Nearly impossible without add-ons for alot. Pumping out maximum damage for your ilvl on heroic content the second week of content release is something less than 5% of the entire raiding population can do (probably lower). That's ontop of boss mechanics.

    Rotations are more reactive today. Back then it was, hit your buttons in a certain order. Now it's hit your buttons while reacting to procs and buffs and attempt to anticipate when those buffs may come back up ontop of watching a resource that needs to be lined up with cooldowns (and potentially with buffs). The skill cap is generally higher in dps rotations today. It isn't automatic because your procs aren't automatic and what you press depends on that. This is why you see such a drastic dps difference between the people ranking top 20ish in a given spec and the rest even though the ilvl difference is often minimal. Part of it is luck as well, of course. Anyone can do decently today even if they don't fully understand their spec rotation but have a general idea the basics and buttons to push. They won't cut it in a heroic progression guild, but they can kill normals. Only exception are certain specs that are unforgiving. (shadow priest, affliction lock, fire mage, unholy dk and couple others etc).

    I would say your average player back then would have had a hard time picking it up, yes. Just like they do today. Good players would have adapted. Rotations back then just consisted of pushing 2-4 buttons in a specific order and that's it. Less for some others.

    You mention Guardian druid which is a priority queue. Priority queue is much easier than a reactive rotation (lower skill cap). Tanking rotations, in general, are much simpler than dps.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    Bosses weren't as hard as they are now but on the other hand classes were very weak, much weaker from a defensive pov, e.g. rogues didn't have cos and feint didn't reduce aoe dmg, mages coul get ice block by going deep into frost tree, shield wall was very strong but had 30 min cd, palas sucked at everything but healing and dispelling, many bosses an trash were immune to some schools of magic (fire mage on ragnaros? gg) and many required a specific resistance gear on tanks (or all raid members) to avoid getting blown up, there was no mass ress and trash had shorter repop time, all of this made raiding not really more difficult, but it made it more tedious for sure.

    With that said, it was impossible back in vanilla even for a hardcore guild to clear all the content in a couple of days.
    That's what people get confused. They think more days required to kill a boss makes it harder. Back in Vanilla and BC, Blizzard added artificial gates to slow down progression raiders. These are things like having to get keys for your entire 40 man raid, broken bosses that are impossible to kill, and having to farm resist gear/specific items for the entire raid.

    Came from the old school EQ days where Sony used these same tactics to slow down the best guilds. At some point around Wrath - Blizzard got smarter and started adding harder group mechanics and different difficulty modes to fix it. Instead of cockblocking the best guilds with stupid gating to slow them down. That way, they didn't have to overtune content and make it impossible for your average raider.

    The world first race has just become so intense that the very top guilds simply put in extreme hours/pulls to get ahead since noone is blocked by artificial gating from blizzard.
    Last edited by Tstr88; 2013-10-01 at 09:06 AM.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Tstr88 View Post
    I would say your average player back then would have had a hard time picking it up, yes. Just like they do today. Good players would have adapted. Rotations back then just consisted of pushing 2-4 buttons in a specific order and that's it. Less for some others.
    This I agree with.

    Just like back in classic, I think today the average player has very little interest in maximizing their performance in a raiding environment. As an old-school gamer, picking up rotations was very easy for me, yet it was still something I had to put a lot of effort into mastering. I spent hours this expansion just beating on training dummies, and I put a lot of effort into maximizing my DPS on every encounter, which wound up earning me multiple top 20-100 Guardian druid spots on WoL. (I guess none of my records remains, seeing as I stopped playing back in June, when gear levels were much lower across the board)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tstr88 View Post
    You mention Guardian druid which is a priority queue. Priority queue is much easier than a reactive rotation (lower skill cap). Tanking rotations, in general, are much simpler than dps.
    The Guardian DPS rotation may have been easy, but it still kept you on your toes.

    The guardian priority queue depends a lot on debuffs and CD resets. Some of their abilities had a CHANCE of resetting the CD on their highest priority skills. When this happened, a guardian had to decide whether or not to actually use this high priority attack, or whether it was more important to refresh one of their debuffs or dots. So even just looking at their DPS rotation, in reality it was just a long line of split second decisions. The worse your decision making, the more your overall DPS will suffer.

    You then have to add your tanking ability rotation on top of the above. For a guardian druid your active mitigation was not a part of your damage rotation. Your DPS rotation just earned you the rage required to pull off your active mitigation, but when and where to use your tanking abilities was a completely separate set of decisions to think about. Especially considering the fact that a guardian druid's most important active mitigation abilities aren't even on the global cooldown, so you'll constantly be activating them at the same time as you're pulling off your DPS rotation.

    Now don't get me wrong, I don't think the above is very complicated. It's something you get very good at very fast, so long as you put some effort in. But yeah, the only other rotation I can compare the above to is the T14 feral rotation, which was about as hard/easy to pull off. A lot of druids complained about the feral rotation being very hard though, for what it's worth.

  20. #220
    Deleted
    Klaxxi does look complicated on paper (can only speak for normal version) and i thought we would spend some time learning the fight.
    It actually wasnt that complicated. We killed it on the 5th pull.

    You could say the same about, for example, Lei Shen. Tons of abilities but when you actually do the fight they are active at certain points of the fight (bit different on heroic). You can learn the conduits step by step if you need and the actual mechanics are easy enough to understand after seeing them one time.

    The dungeon journal makes things look more complicated than it is. Personally i dont look too much at it, i am better at learning by doing :-P

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