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  1. #121
    Remember the times when you knew if an item was good or bad based on how much of each stat it had? Now it's just ilvl.
    Good times.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaleous View Post
    The problem is that it's a lot easier for the game to calculate smaller numbers than it is for bigger numbers. Ever notice on a calculator that when you do 234x561, it gives you the answer immediately, but when you do 39034544234x234026324, it takes it a few seconds? It's the same principle. The game is only going to get even more laggy as numbers get bigger; therefore, the item squish is needed.

    I'm not sure what kind of calculator you're using but mine can do either of those instantly
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamdwelf View Post
    Strong females aren't called bitches, bitches are called bitches because they are bitches.

  3. #123
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danuraya View Post
    w00ts the problem? addons like msbt already use numbers like "230k" and not 230.012. are devs too dumb to implement this into the game?

    reminds me kinda of the millenium bug.. "omg, never thougt some1 would reach this. now all databases are fucked up" jesus.... don't devs think about simple numberscaling?
    just throwing something in here.

    T2 legs - which dropped from ragnaros - have like 42 stamina or something. at least the mage ones I just have checked. nowadays a fricking GEM has 240 stamina alone.
    a two hand weapon (from ragnaros) has 80 dps and zero stamina. nowadays 2h weapons have 7600 dps and additionally 3100 stamina on that.
    RAGNAROS was the first boss (40 man boss) with over 1 million life. nowadays TANKS have one million life (I have 980k raidbuffed, with 556 itemlvl), even non-tanks are way over 600k by now.

    when you were standing in front of ragnaros, and someone would've told you "hey, 7 years from now, tanks will have as much health as ragnaros now has, and the DPS from a single player will be at around 250.000...." what would you have told them? I bet you would've declared them crazy and called the police to bring him into psychiatry. everyone would have. even blizzard itself stated during WOTLK, that they did not expect the dps and stuff to grow that much through the roof (because that argent tournament raid thingy wasn't planned first), so they had to increase the itemlevels more than expected. Hence all the nerfs at the end of the expansion (armor penetration anyone?)...

    no one expected the numbers to be so high at the end of expansion 4 of that game. you always expect something as the maximum you will never reach. and no matter how high you set this, as long as the product is evolving, there WILL be a point where you reach that.

    and for your argument "addons like msbt already use numbers like 230k and not 230.012". well... that's only a display filter. the database in the background does not care how the numbers are displayed on your client. the item squish would be in a way that you ACTUALLY DO only 230 damage instead of 230k or 230.012. just displaying numbers different is not the same as an real item squish as it seems to be planned.
    Last edited by xebtria; 2013-10-22 at 10:57 AM.

  4. #124
    Most of the people here have really no clue at all.

    First, the guys talking about "prefix"es, look up the meaning, you´re talking about suffixes.

    Second, the item squish will come, whether you like it or not, doesn´t matter, and there are many maany many good rational reasons for this.

    Third: "You can´t run WoW on a 32Bit System anyway anymore". Some people do, and noone would like to scare off these customers. It HAS to work on 32Bit machines.

    Fourth: This isn´t about displaing numbers, it´s about the underlying operations. Sure, you can just switch data types and make EVERY SINGLE NUMERICAL OPERATION THREE TIMES AS COMPLEX AS IT NEEDS TO BE. But anyone can see why this isn´t a smart solution, don´t even have to cite input lags etc.

    Fifth: Yes, the same problem may arise again in ten years, if WoW still exists by then. But again, that´s not a reason not to tackle the current problem.

    Conclusion: The item squish has to come and it will come, and for several good reasons. And i´d bet Blizz is smart enough to pull this off without affecting the gameplay or soloing old content in any way.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    when you were standing in front of ragnaros, and someone would've told you "hey, 7 years from now, tanks will have as much health as ragnaros now has, and the DPS from a single player will be at around 250.000...." what would you have told them? I bet you would've declared them crazy and called the police to bring him into psychiatry. everyone would have. even blizzard itself stated during WOTLK, that they did not expect the dps and stuff to grow that much through the roof (because that argent tournament raid thingy wasn't planned first), so they had to increase the itemlevels more than expected. Hence all the nerfs at the end of the expansion (armor penetration anyone?)...
    ArPen was a problem with the mechanic, not the numbers. As for the numbers, i'd probably have said "dunno, maybe". Calling them crazy would be weird.

  6. #126
    Stood in the Fire Snuglz's Avatar
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    I really do not think we will see any type of mega dmg or anything like that because it would just make things like doing simulations a pain in the ass to calculate. Here is a side note though, Heroic 25m Garrosh's health had to be split up like you see the fight now where his health is relatively low but you have to drop it down a few times. The reason for this is that his health if compiled fully was too big for it be to processed by blizzards system.

    All is really needed is a item squish in the numbers to knock it down some so it is not so large. I am critting 2.3+ mil on my Storm Bolts at this point. And it doesnt feel any different nor do I even notice if it does 2,300,100 dmg or 2,330,123 dmg. If i were to guess they are just going to drop the numbers exponentially.

  7. #127
    well, isnt there any addon that changes 1000 dmg to 1k dmg etc?

    everything should be scaled down. Lowest items from 2nd expansion shouldn't be 10x time better than items from 1st expansion but only 1,5x-3x better.

  8. #128
    I really don't see why WoW has to have a different solution than D3.
    (Meaning: k,m,g,t,e, etc.)

    I further don't see why an item squish is needed to lessen Blizzards server load unless they haven't upgraded their stuff in 7 years (because guess what the calculation power also goes up pretty steadily).

    And as a last point new character models and the already implemented new spell animations will and are causing much more strain on their customers computers than a difference in dmg calculation by a factor of a million or a billion.

    Yet those were so necessary, right?

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Second, the item squish will come, whether you like it or not, doesn´t matter, and there are many maany many good rational reasons for this.
    It won't come if developers will come back to sense.
    Third: "You can´t run WoW on a 32Bit System anyway anymore". Some people do, and noone would like to scare off these customers. It HAS to work on 32Bit machines.
    You barely can now and it will be unplayable in next expansion. I have old PC near, "64-bit" CPU but quite old and with Win XP. With lowest settings solo in MoP lands it is maximum 20 fps. 15 in 5-men. Performance of client was dropping exponentially each next expansion. In next expansion it will be unplayable, especially with all so much "wanted" new character models. If Blizzard wouldn't want to scare off customers with old PCs, they would release light-weight client or add options to tone down graphical effects significantly. Switching to 64-bit variables would have minimum to no effect on end-user's PC.
    Fourth: This isn´t about displaing numbers, it´s about the underlying operations. Sure, you can just switch data types and make EVERY SINGLE NUMERICAL OPERATION THREE TIMES AS COMPLEX AS IT NEEDS TO BE. But anyone can see why this isn´t a smart solution, don´t even have to cite input lags etc.
    Input lags have nothing to do with "big numbers". It comes from awful algorithmization of the game. Just few examples:
    1. 2-roll dodge/block combat tables. New "brilliant" MoP change.
    2. DR on Vengeance in AoE situations. Another "brilliant" and recent change.
    3. Procs from procs (just look at some of SoO tier bonuses).
    Fifth: Yes, the same problem may arise again in ten years, if WoW still exists by then. But again, that´s not a reason not to tackle the current problem.
    If current game system developers won't reconsider their approach to the game or their position, we will reach same situation in 2 years. Going from 200k HP tank to 1 mil HP tank is 5000% inflation over the course of expansion. This is without Flex. With Flex expect much more.
    Conclusion: The item squish has to come and it will come, and for several good reasons. And i´d bet Blizz is smart enough to pull this off without affecting the gameplay or soloing old content in any way.
    "Item squish" is result of incompetence of current game system designers and as idea itself it breaks the whole core of RPG as video game genre - consistency and continuity of character progress. If Blizzard is smart enough, they won't allow "item squish" to happen and they will look closer into the issues with design of game systems, possibly replacing some people.

    Edit: Oh and I saw how they addressed some of such problems in past. When Emblems were converted into simply "points", it became infinitely harder than impossible to obtain lv70/80 badge/emblem gear at relevant level. Issue was raised on official forums several times, and 3-4 years later it is still ignored. "Item squish", just like Emblems->points conversion, serves no reason other than to mess with character progression.
    Last edited by Ferocity; 2013-10-22 at 01:34 PM.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Third: "You can´t run WoW on a 32Bit System anyway anymore". Some people do, and noone would like to scare off these customers. It HAS to work on 32Bit machines.
    I don't know where you found it but you can have 64 bits variables in 32bits systems.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    It won't come if developers will come back to sense.

    You barely can now and it will be unplayable in next expansion. I have old PC near, "64-bit" CPU but quite old and with Win XP. With lowest settings solo in MoP lands it is maximum 20 fps. 15 in 5-men. Performance of client was dropping exponentially each next expansion. In next expansion it will be unplayable, especially with all so much "wanted" new character models. If Blizzard wouldn't want to scare off customers with old PCs, they would release light-weight client or add options to tone down graphical effects significantly. Switching to 64-bit variables would have minimum to no effect on end-user's PC.

    Input lags have nothing to do with "big numbers". It comes from awful algorithmization of the game. Just few examples:
    1. 2-roll dodge/block combat tables. New "brilliant" MoP change.
    2. DR on Vengeance in AoE situations. Another "brilliant" and recent change.
    3. Procs from procs (just look at some of SoO tier bonuses).

    If current game system developers won't reconsider their approach to the game or their position, we will reach same situation in 2 years. Going from 200k HP tank to 1 mil HP tank is 5000% inflation over the course of expansion. This is without Flex. With Flex expect much more.

    "Item squish" is result of incompetence of current game system designers and as idea itself it breaks the whole core of RPG as video game genre - consistency and continuity of character progress. If Blizzard is smart enough, they won't allow "item squish" to happen and they will look closer into the issues with design of game systems, possibly replacing some people.

    Edit: Oh and I saw how they addressed some of such problems in past. When Emblems were converted into simply "points", it became infinitely harder than impossible to obtain lv70/80 badge/emblem gear at relevant level. Issue was raised on official forums several times, and 3-4 years later it is still ignored. "Item squish", just like Emblems->points conversion, serves no reason other than to mess with character progression.
    Idk you might want to have a look at having ur pc fixed. I have 32 bit win7 4gb ram and core2quad and i get 30-40 fps in combat in 25man heroics... Maybe one or 2 encounters are an issue like malkorok (for fps) and input lag present on pretty much all fights. In the world? 90+. This is a 5 year old machine. 32 vs 64 bit isn't an actual issue all the combat calculations or whatever are checked server side. max hp threshold doesnt change if everyone runs 64bit wow.

    - - - Updated - - -

    also it will take more than 2 years to need another squish if they do it properly we should be at BC HP/dmg values or slightly above

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    also it will take more than 2 years to need another squish if they do it properly we should be at BC HP/dmg values or slightly above
    Keep in mind that this time each tier will have:

    LFR gear -> Flex -> Normal -> Heroic.

    So it should grow much faster than ever before.

  13. #133
    Herald of the Titans Haidaes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snuglz View Post
    [...]Heroic 25m Garrosh's health had to be split up like you see the fight now where his health is relatively low but you have to drop it down a few times. The reason for this is that his health if compiled fully was too big for it be to processed by blizzards system.[..]
    Where did you pull that one from? Whats his health on 25H anyway? I could only find the 25N value of 451.401.792, in 10 man mode he has roughly 48% more health on heroic than on normal, so my guess would be around 668 million health. 3 times that is 2.004 million, which is still in the range of a 32-bit signed (!) integer (which you would only use if you are retarded, given that negative health makes no sense, well as a lazy cop out maybe) and hence not even close to the full ranage of 4,29 billion and a little something.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Where did you pull that one from? Whats his health on 25H anyway? I could only find the 25N value of 451.401.792, in 10 man mode he has roughly 48% more health on heroic than on normal, so my guess would be around 668 million health. 3 times that is 2.004 million, which is still in the range of a 32-bit signed (!) integer (which you would only use if you are retarded, given that negative health makes no sense, well as a lazy cop out maybe) and hence not even close to the full ranage of 4,29 billion and a little something.
    Well if there wasn't a problem with max hp raden bug thing wouldnt have happened and garrosh would just start with max hp and transition at different percentages rather than healing back up and gaining hp or whatver. Idk why your trying to deny it been acknowledged by devs multiple times to date this is one issue/

  15. #135
    Dreadlord Tarx's Avatar
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    I have solusion: Instant lvl 90 with the health points of lvl 1 character and all mobs lvl 90 with higher stats at area.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2013-10-22 at 03:06 PM.

  16. #136
    Herald of the Titans Haidaes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Well if there wasn't a problem with max hp raden bug thing wouldnt have happened and garrosh would just start with max hp and transition at different percentages rather than healing back up and gaining hp or whatver. Idk why your trying to deny it been acknowledged by devs multiple times to date this is one issue/
    I take it the devs said something like that in the way too many blueposts, haven't seen that honestly, but okay. What is the "max hp raden bug thing" though, which you are refering to? Hey Quotemonkey, can ya give me a hand and look that one up for me? :P

  17. #137
    Stood in the Fire Snuglz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Where did you pull that one from? Whats his health on 25H anyway? I could only find the 25N value of 451.401.792, in 10 man mode he has roughly 48% more health on heroic than on normal, so my guess would be around 668 million health. 3 times that is 2.004 million, which is still in the range of a 32-bit signed (!) integer (which you would only use if you are retarded, given that negative health makes no sense, well as a lazy cop out maybe) and hence not even close to the full ranage of 4,29 billion and a little something.
    From my GM, and I will have to check with him exactly which GM he heard it from but I know it is one of the 25 man thats 14/14H that confirmed this was the case the fight was designed how it was.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    I take it the devs said something like that in the way too many blueposts, haven't seen that honestly, but okay. What is the "max hp raden bug thing" though, which you are refering to? Hey Quotemonkey, can ya give me a hand and look that one up for me? :P
    When a red orb hits ra-den he increases his current and maximum hp by 10%. During a farm raid the guild Midwinter got a big streak of a lot of red orbs. After a certain number of orbs the boss just went to 1/1 or something iirc and couldn't be killed. Garrosh is a real hack-job of a fight b/c of this threshold. Just awkward in design

    As far as quotes I cba pulling one out for you. Do yourself a favor and browse the blue feed and twitter weekly and you might have a remote idea the game the direction the game is taking. If you did that you'd know the squish is basically guaranteed at this point. I just find it interesting so much controversy can come from people that are attached to big numbers /don't like change.

    It's actually odd everyone wouldn't welcome more simplicity (especially at max level).
    Last edited by Aboubacar; 2013-10-22 at 02:18 PM.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by snuglz View Post
    I really do not think we will see any type of mega dmg or anything like that because it would just make things like doing simulations a pain in the ass to calculate. Here is a side note though, Heroic 25m Garrosh's health had to be split up like you see the fight now where his health is relatively low but you have to drop it down a few times. The reason for this is that his health if compiled fully was too big for it be to processed by blizzards system.

    All is really needed is a item squish in the numbers to knock it down some so it is not so large. I am critting 2.3+ mil on my Storm Bolts at this point. And it doesnt feel any different nor do I even notice if it does 2,300,100 dmg or 2,330,123 dmg. If i were to guess they are just going to drop the numbers exponentially.
    We already have it in-game, though not for damage. Health is regularly shown as xxxk or xxxM. That IS the mega-damage solution. It's not much of a problem for simulations, either, as anything beyond the third digit(or fourth, at most) is below the simulations accuracy anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    If current game system developers won't reconsider their approach to the game or their position, we will reach same situation in 2 years. Going from 200k HP tank to 1 mil HP tank is 5000% inflation over the course of expansion. This is without Flex. With Flex expect much more.

    "Item squish" is result of incompetence of current game system designers and as idea itself it breaks the whole core of RPG as video game genre - consistency and continuity of character progress. If Blizzard is smart enough, they won't allow "item squish" to happen and they will look closer into the issues with design of game systems, possibly replacing some people.
    That's 400% increase.(400%*200k + 200k = 1m, an increase is added to what you already have)
    5000% would be 10.2m HP tanks.

    Also, the item squish results not from incompetence, but from a fundamental issue of increasing character stats... how to keep it meaningful over long stretches. There is no perfect solution, no matter how smart you are.

    You might as well claim that somebody driving down a narrow street and suddenly encountering an old lady needs to be smarter, when realistically, his only choices are driving into a wall or over the woman. There is no good option, just a decision as to which one you consider less bad.

  20. #140
    Brewmaster Marston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Where did you pull that one from? Whats his health on 25H anyway? I could only find the 25N value of 451.401.792, in 10 man mode he has roughly 48% more health on heroic than on normal, so my guess would be around 668 million health. 3 times that is 2.004 million, which is still in the range of a 32-bit signed (!) integer (which you would only use if you are retarded, given that negative health makes no sense, well as a lazy cop out maybe) and hence not even close to the full ranage of 4,29 billion and a little something.
    25 man Heroic:

    P1: 676 Million.
    P2: 1757 Million. (only goes to 10%, then P 3 starts)
    P3: Heals for 30% health (that being 3x 175.7 = 527.1 Million)

    P4 (Heroic only phase): Heals back to 60%, that being 1054.2 Milllion.

    So, if we add up all of his health, Garrosh would have

    676 + 1757 + 527 + 1054 = 4014 Million HP (a bit more actually, but yeah).

    And I got those values from Method's 25 Man Heroic World first Video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jQYObKTIG8

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