The problem with minmaxing

[Lazy Gecko]

I think minmaxing is something that's not getting nearly as much discussion/debate as it needs in gaming and game design. It's something I've been thinking about a lot lately. I think originally the term came from P&P roleplaying games but the term now is pretty much exploiting systems and mechanics to maximum efficiency in any type of video game. While I can definitely understand the appeal and craftmanship in squeezing as much as you can out of something, I've come to realize that in the vast majority of cases this just turns into an unenjoyable, detrimental experience for me. Especially in online games.

I think my first experience with this was playing the first Starcraft online. As time went on, players became increasingly focused on micromanagement to get the most out of each individual unit. The influence of the competitive scene made micro so widespread that it basically turned into a completely different game for me. And I don't play strategy games to babysit every action of every individual unit.

More recently we have Chivalry: Medieval Warfare. While it isn't very common on public servers, I'm a bit worried this will spread to the general playerbase and make it unenjoyable for me. It's difficult to explain for someone who hasn't played Chivalry and isn't familiar with the melee combat mechanics. Basically the more skilled, competitive players have adopted these convoluted mousedragging mechanics to maximize their performance. It makes the characters look like they're spazzing out and having seizures. It's completely ridiculous and I very much doubt this is how the developers intended the game to be played (Ironically, these same players usually scorn other players using the basic feinting feature).

And then we have of course World of Warcraft. This is where my main issue is less with the players themselves and more about Blizzard pandering all too much to minmaxers when redesigning and balancing the game. This has resulted in a myriad of traditional CRPG features being removed or watered down. All because a select few players don't want to feel forced to switch to a certain race or class just because they might perform 3% better than their current choie in a raid. I would not be surprised if at some point in the future RNG/Dice rolls are completely gone with each weapon swing and spellcast doing the exact same amount of damage every time with no random chance of criticals, and every class playing virtually the same (getting pretty close with that already).

Last example I can think of is Torchlight 2. I was looking for guides on how to play Embermage, and I was pretty much told to spam one spell and one spell only throughout the entire game... I mean, seriously? I even recall watching a preview video with developer commentary, and he said himself that he prefered himself to play in a more casual manner without worrying about minmaxing. I can see why.

[Deleted]

Last example I can think of is Torchlight 2. I was looking for guides on how to play Embermage, and I was pretty much told to spam one spell and one spell only throughout the entire game... I mean, seriously? I even recall watching a preview video with developer commentary, and he said himself that he prefered himself to play in a more casual manner without worrying about minmaxing. I can see why.

Really? complaining about min-maxing and then looking for min-maxing guides yourself? double standards much?

Anyway, ever came to your mind that people at blizzard also enjoy the number crunching and balancing stuff? I imagine there are a lot of people with PnP and other rpg background working at blizz having at least some fun doing number crunching and stuff. Of course the way the community treats balancing could be much improved, but if blizzard did not have any interest in balancing stuff as well as possible, they simply would not do it.

[Lazy Gecko]

Really? complaining about min-maxing and then looking for min-maxing guides yourself? double standards much?

I think you're making assumptions here. I was performing rather poorly as embermage and was just looking for some tips and inspiration on improving myself. I specifically wanted to play with an electric-focused spec and that was the one specifically saying I should only cast prismatic bolt over and over. Obviously I did not trod down that path.

[Achaman]

wtf is minmaxing?

[Deleted]

wtf is minmaxing?

Pretty much this

[OrcsRLame]

wtf is minmaxing?

The act of minimizing weaknesses and maximizing strengths. Essentially, character building.

[Noorri]

wtf is minmaxing?

Minmaxing is spending time doing research about your class and practicing playing it perfectly to make sure that you get the absolute most damage/survivability/healing/whatever else you need out of your character.

[Deleted]

Minmaxing is spending time doing research about your class and practicing playing it perfectly to make sure that you get the absolute most damage/survivability/healing/whatever else you need out of your character.

So if i understand you correctly the OP is pissed that people want to get better at the game ?

[Lazy Gecko]

I tried to summarize minmaxing at the start of the OP but perhaps I need to elaborate. There is a wikipedia article about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minmaxing

I think it has its roots in the character building process in traditional RPGs where you rolled or chose your starting stats. If you wanted to play the best possible warrior, then you would subtract as many points as possible from stats like intelligence and charisma if they provide no sufficient combat benefits for you (on a related note this would lead to some... amusing results if you tried this in Fallout 1 and 2). In video games, not just RPGs, it's about studying systems and gameplay mechanics and exploiting them to your benefit as much as you possibly can, to the point of what you might call abusing developer oversights or glitches (this is more of a grey area).

I feel this is mostly detrimental and undermines the spirit of the respective games. But there are a few positive cases out there which I can think of. Combos in Street Fighter 2 were originally an oversight/exploit but eventually became an official feature in later installments. I think the same held true for rocket jumping in Quake which became a staple of the franchise.

[noahjam326]

So if i understand you correctly the OP is pissed that people want to get better at the game ?

If you read the original post I thought it was pretty clear the point he was making. There's nothing wrong with wanting to do your best, but in modern games it seems the min-maxing community actually changes the balancing of the game from fun mechanics to strict number crunching. I believe that's what the OP was getting at. When min-maxing begins to change the balancing, and focus of the game.

[Deleted]

If you read the original post I thought it was pretty clear the point he was making. There's nothing wrong with wanting to do your best, but in modern games it seems the min-maxing community actually changes the balancing of the game from fun mechanics to strict number crunching. I believe that's what the OP was getting at. When min-maxing begins to change the balancing, and focus of the game.

I read it, it just confused me.

I honestly can't see a massive issue here o.0 - I understand the point but i don't see why its a problem

[Afrospinach]

There has no doubt been a massive shift in mentality(mainly talking about wow here) since vanilla. Early on those that looked up strats and class info were pretty rare among the people I knew and I have to say there was a bit of adventure around every corner. Come TBC we were just getting to what I refer to as the play-by-wiki phase and I told people to can it initially until we actually started raiding. Now knowing everything before it happens is a mandate and I feel it is pretty sad, but in order to change that you are looking at what I believe is an insurmountable task. Convincing people they will have fun doing this, actually figuring out things on their own and god forbid - applying their own gray matter to the task at hand. Also, in WoW failure is no longer an option. One wipe is a terminal proposition, even in a 5 man, so you need to know everything. WoW is no longer a learner or adventurers field, this spills into other games too before they even really get off the ground also as the culture is established.

[Ugum]

Back when my friends and I still got together once a month for a PnP game, we had a few campaigns going. One was the ridiculously overpowered campaign. We rolled characters on a 4d6, drop the lowest of the roll and all 1's are 6's. That pretty much gave you a consistent 14 or better on all stats (and lot's of 18's). Then we had our gimp campaign. You rolled 3d6 and dropped the numbers in order. You didn't get to choose where they went, you just went down the list and dropped them is as you rolled.

We had the most fun we've ever had in our gimp campaign. Some really funny stuff came out of those runs.

Unfortunately, that doesn't translate well into an MMO. You can play like a gimp, but you aren't going to get anywhere and if you play like that with a group of people, they aren't going to stick around very long.

Can be fun in PnP but doesn't work in MMO's. Min/Maxing is really the only way to play if you actually want to accomplish something.

[Osmeric]

So if i understand you correctly the OP is pissed that people want to get better at the game ?

No, I think he's upset that optimization may push one into less fun playstyles, not that optimizing itself is necessarily unfun.

[WarpedAcorn]

wtf is minmaxing?

Laurcus is right, and someone who Min/Maxes will look at Stat A and see a 1% increase per point, then at Stat B and see a 1.00000000001% increase and then build around Stat B because its ever slightly more powerful.

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue though, and whether I think its an issue. I feel knowing how to min/max a character is indicative of understanding the game mechanics and how to be the most efficient, but then again I don't like making decisions based solely on numbers.

[Sobedesce]

I remember when I got TES: Oblivion for the PS3 (don't worry I've got it on the pc now as well) and learned about the leveling system. Oh boy.
If you're not familiar with the leveling system on Oblivion your character gains a level after increasing one of his major skills 5 (iirc) times, and you gain major skills by using them. That means you could end up with a higher level character with your skills spread out so much that you'd be "underpowered" for your level.

I searched online for guides on ho to efficiently level up, as to focus only on the skills I'd be using as to have a strong character for my level (eventually you get all skills but one to the max). Most guides consisted of doing a certain quest that gives you a staff that curses you and make 3 imps follow you around. If you kill one of them they respawn seconds later.

So instead of playing the game and just focusing on whatever I intended to do the most I got this staff and went to the second floor of an Inn in the main city and spent hundreds of hours leveling my one handed, shield, heavy armor and some other skills, before even starting to play the game.
All that time my brother was also playing the game on his own character. He just went on playing focusing on whatever he wanted his character to develop (destruction magic in his case) and having a blast. Sure his destruction magic level might have been a few levels lower than it could be given his character level, but he was playing the game and having fun, while I was locked in the second floor of an Inn pressing the same button for hours a day.
Eventually I did max all the skills possible. That was also about the time my brother got done with the game and the dlcs.
So I went ahead and decided to finally play the game. I did the Knights of the Nine dlc first to get the very good armor and sword you get from it and started to play. While the creatures do level up and get stronger as you do, I had so much health, took so little damage and killed everything so fast the game quickly became boring.

I did the main quest for the story/lore and another dlc, but had to drag myself trough the rest of the game just so I could see everything and so that all that time leveling my character wasn't wasted.

So I eventually finished the game. So what do I do now ? I have this perfect stats character and there isn't really anything else I can do with it. So I just moved to a different game and left my character there. I can't say it was a pleasant experience leveling him, and I probably didn't have more fun than my brother who just played the game at his own pace (I'd argue I had LESS fun). In the end we both beat the game and never played our characters again, but I wasted a lot more time doing something that was both pointless and boring.

Still, my first thought when playing Demon Souls was to do the same and try to minmax my character, but after one hour farming the same area I thought "wtf am I doing" and decided to stop following the guide I had and just play the freaking game, building my character however I wanted. I had a blast and it in no way stopped me from beating and enjoying the game.

[Deleted]

No, I think he's upset that optimization may push one into less fun playstyles, not that optimizing itself is necessarily unfun.

So its getting the best out of your character despite having a negative impact on fun (in some cases)

A non issue most of the time imo.

[PetersenIII]

Still, my first thought when playing Demon Souls was to do the same and try to minmax my character, but after one hour farming the same area I thought "wtf am I doing" and decided to stop following the guide I had and just play the freaking game, building my character however I wanted. I had a blast and it in no way stopped me from beating and enjoying the game.

One does not simply "beat" Demon Souls. ~_^

[Lazy Gecko]

I remember when I got TES: Oblivion for the PS3 (don't worry I've got it on the pc now as well) and learned about the leveling system. Oh boy.

I was going to bring up TES originally but I didn't want the OP to drag on forever. I have definitely noticed a pattern in TES games where people with minmaxing/powergaming compulsions have trouble enjoying the games. I've had situations like those you describe myself. In Morrowind I just constantly jumped all the time to keep increasing my acrobatics, and created cheap low-cost spells and spammed them forever to level them up (the magnitude of the spell has no effect on the rate of your leveling). Eventually I had my "what the hell am I doing" moment, just stopped doing those things and played the game as it was "meant" to be played.

I think the systems in TES games are so mind-numbingly simple and straightforward to exploit that there's very little challenge and mental reward to it, hence why people find them very poorly balanced from a powergaming perspective.

[XDurionX]

Totally agree. While i try to get the best out of my performance, at a certain degree it just becomes unfun. Dancing around hard caps for example, or dot ticks or whatever. Sink hundreds of gold into reforges just because i got one new item. But on the other hand anything that decreases the chance of wiping is mandatory as a "serious" player. Have acknowledged that development over the years as well, but think it rather has to do with my attitude as a gamer changed than with the game itself.