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  1. #1

    Does Blizzard Allow Players Too Much Access to Numbers?

    Every few weeks/months, Ghostcrawler makes comments about balance and the dps delta between classes and specs. He has been abundantly clear that the damage/dps deltas are small enough at this point that they are negligible for every single encounter and that specs are mostly interchangeable for the purposes of downing bosses.

    However, he has also made clear that in practice, players still over-represent highest theoretical dps specs and stigmatize theoretically lower specs. In BC the delta was about 30% from top dps to lowest dps. They have shrunk that to around 5%. So I got to thinking about this and wondered what you all thought about it, too.

    If the numbers are as Ghostcrawler says, at this point, what benefit is there in allowing players to have so much access to the numbers side of the game. According to him, there is literally no upside to allowing players to have enough information for theorycrafting calculators and certain kinds of parses to work.

    If what he's saying is correct, would it not be in the best to just break raidbots and WOL altogether? Would that result in a positive, more inclusive WoW raiding culture where players are judged based on their individual performance instead of accepted, rejected, or ridiculed based on theorycrafting and rigged rankings?
    Last edited by Bridgetjones; 2013-09-27 at 09:19 PM.

  2. #2
    The Unstoppable Force Resentful's Avatar
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    That would be fucking terrible beyond reason like guilds primary use that shit to figure out whos bad and such along with helping others like that literally be one of the biggest mistakes they can ever make in addition A LOT of raid guilds would be pissed, even low tier shit tier w/e tier guilds use WOL for analysis because it brings a lot of useful information

  3. #3
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    Yes. They do. The minute someone hears 5 people have quit the game, we get 200 threads talking about the next Q Call and how many subs are gone, and how the game is dying, and blah blah blah. Folks need to go back to a time when they played the game because it was fun, and not because it's a numbers sheet.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by I-NO View Post
    That would be fucking terrible beyond reason like guilds primary use that shit to figure out whos bad and such along with helping others like that literally be one of the biggest mistakes they can ever make in addition A LOT of raid guilds would be pissed, even low tier shit tier w/e tier guilds use WOL for analysis because it brings a lot of useful information
    What if they broke WOL but left Recount in tact? That would give you access to your own team's numbers without stigmatizing entire classes and specs.

  5. #5
    The Unstoppable Force Resentful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgetjones View Post
    What if they broke WOL but left Recount in tact? That would give you access to your own team's numbers without stigmatizing entire classes and specs.
    Recount doesn't have the core info that WOL has not a possible chance lol

  6. #6
    Also, if you think about the amount of class/spec uniqueness, gameplay variation, and flavor players have sacrificed for the sake of balance, isn't all that just wasted if the number calculators keep perpetuating the same kinds of attitudes the balance was trying to fix in the first place?

    Think about everything we've lost in the name of homogeny. Faction-specific classes, unique class buffs, hybrid builds, tons of proc-based talents, entire support/crossover specs. And for what? To just have the community at large not change AT ALL?!

  7. #7
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    played the game because it was fun
    Why would you play a game because it's "fun"? That's completely and utterly ridiculous.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by I-NO View Post
    Recount doesn't have the core info that WOL has not a possible chance lol
    WOL can still function for what you're talking about without access to all the numbers. It could still do your timelines for when you dispelled, who you targeted, what skills you used most, tracking your procs and uptime, etc. And it could easily be done without the overall rankings that make the front page and plague the community and make every single class forum totally toxic.

  9. #9
    As long as WoW remains popular, it'll have curious and smart players who will try to figure them out anyway. Besides, internet resources have developed greatly even over the last five years. There's no way to keep details away from players when they want them.

  10. #10
    They could just break recount and Wol then implement their own in-game damage meter that shows the player their own damage along with a party / raid chart that only shows other party/raid members damage as a star (or circle or square or balloon w/e) rating from 1-10, based on highest dps player -> 0 dps. Award a star per 10% increment away from top dps and anyone within that 10% would show as 10 stars, you do 90% of the best player and you get 9 stars etc. Would cut out alot of nit picking over numbers, and top guilds can just require SS's of a players dps if they really want to. Hell do a 20 star rating and have 5% increments if thats not accurate enough.

    Most of the bitching i've seen comes people wanting the top spot on the meters even if there damage is more than competitive.
    Last edited by Ech0544; 2013-09-27 at 09:34 PM.

  11. #11
    How would they break WoL? It's a third-party site that uses the combat log found in the game. Everything the site does a person can do, it'd just take a ton of time.

  12. #12
    No no! there's plenty of numbers to go around!

    Ladies

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Raintola View Post
    How would they break WoL? It's a third-party site that uses the combat log found in the game. Everything the site does a person can do, it'd just take a ton of time.
    Restrict the availability of information in the combat log.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Raintola View Post
    How would they break WoL? It's a third-party site that uses the combat log found in the game. Everything the site does a person can do, it'd just take a ton of time.
    Jee, I dunno. That's a perplexing problem, isn't it? </sarcasm>
    "It is a demonstration of incomprehensible hubris to quote one's self, especially in one's own forum signature."
    ¬PetersenIII

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgetjones View Post
    They have shrunk that to around 5%.
    People still believe that lie? Come on.

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Iron_...11000000000000

    Those are raidbots for Iron Juggernaut 25N which is pretty much a tank and spank fight. The delta between elemental shaman and assassination rogue is 22%. Comparing casters to casters, the delta between Affliction and Elemental is 15%.

    I don't know where people take their 5% but it's obviously wrong and never actually happens. People reroll because 15% DPS in a raid matter a lot.
    Last edited by sarasun; 2013-09-27 at 09:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sahugani View Post
    PS: If you detect ANY irony or sarcasm in this post AT ALL, please report it to captain.obvious@youdontsay.com

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgetjones View Post
    Restrict the availability of information in the combat log.
    It's a file in the game, not some item you can lock up in a vault.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Raintola View Post
    It's a file in the game, not some item you can lock up in a vault.
    It's something Blizzard allows us to see. It most certainly is something they can "lock up in a vault".
    "It is a demonstration of incomprehensible hubris to quote one's self, especially in one's own forum signature."
    ¬PetersenIII

  18. #18
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Raintola View Post
    It's a file in the game, not some item you can lock up in a vault.
    Surely not influencible for blizzard.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    Yes. They do. The minute someone hears 5 people have quit the game, we get 200 threads talking about the next Q Call and how many subs are gone, and how the game is dying, and blah blah blah. Folks need to go back to a time when they played the game because it was fun, and not because it's a numbers sheet.
    Some people enjoy working with numbers and theorycrafting.

    It's totally possible to play the game without getting involved in any of the numbers, just like most games if you want to be at the top you will have to

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by PetersenIII View Post
    It's something Blizzard allows us to see. It most certainly is something they can "lock up in a vault".
    Unless it's removed altogether, it'd still be accessible in some form or fashion. If it was removed, how would you judge someone on their individual performance when you can't see it?

    "Gee guys, why is this boss taking so long to die? Why are we hitting the enrage timer?"

    It's not wrong for raid groups to have standards, whether or not you agree with them.

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