1. #2441
    Quote Originally Posted by KingHorse View Post
    Nobody has to work harder, just the number of hours you cut from the other guy. You aren't really paying attention at all here are you?
    You are suggesting that they will accrue the cost of hiring new employees? Will they hire additional HR and management to cover these employees? If you are not stressing people to produce more, you are replacing them with additional risk and cost if employees.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingHorse View Post
    And what are you using as your criteria for "don't use it"? People who don't buy insurance but pay the fine? People who don't accept the subsidy? Explain.
    People who the articles you linked claimed would not be able to sign up to exchanges, because of their state impeding them. The young and healthy people you claim will choose to not use exchanges. People who choose to pay the fine instead of use the provided exchanges.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingHorse View Post
    They keep trying (fourtysomething?) but Harry Reid keeps shitting all over it. Have any of those bills even come up for vote in the Senate? I don't think so, but I may be wrong.
    The attempts to repeal were something republicans thought would work?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingHorse View Post
    The health insurance industry needs to go away completely, and we need a government (taxpayer) paid "free" healthcare system.
    That option is not available, due to the party that also wants to make Obamacare unavailable. Obamacare isn't the best solution, not even close, it's simply that or the crap we have now, where there is no speculation about it's failure.
    Go Hawks!!!!

  2. #2442
    I am Murloc! Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowchikabow View Post
    What a classic example of liberal state-ists: Overhaul an entire industry because 10 to 15% of people don't have it, while destroying the other 85-90% peoples current situation.

    While I am not happy with the government shutting down, the fact remains that Congress DID pass spending bills... 4 times.. and even made concessions (including allowing Obamacare, but stripping the government exemption... which the senate quickly said "fuck that, we aren't going to subject ourselves to the same pains, agony, and financial stress that we plan to impose on ALL OF AMERICA.) If ACA was sooooo great, why did congress/senate (mostly senate), labor unions and such BEG to be exempt from it?

    This is a serious question, that deserves a serious answer.

    In my opinion: The senate/president caused the shutdown more so than congress.
    We should go back to Jim Crow and Segregation under your logic.

    I mean, it only affected about 10% of the population. Who gives a crap, am I right? 90% of Americans were exempt from Jim Crow ANYWAY!

  3. #2443
    Quote Originally Posted by KingHorse View Post
    This is what's happening right now. Has been happening for at least a year.
    No, it actually began in the summer of 2009. Nearly a year before Obamacare passed...

    Quote Originally Posted by KingHorse View Post
    Why did they have coverage? Because it was cheap. They're not dropping coverage, their employer is dropping it for them. They're not picking it up because the fine is not big enough to force them to buy coverage.
    Because it was cheap? 0 is still cheaper. Why did they choose to spend money, instead of being cheaper and not spending it? It being cheap makes no sense, when the alternative was 0.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingHorse View Post
    So I've heard the theory several times (mostly from liberals) that the bill is shit and unworkable on purpose, to force a fix later, namely a shift to single payer. How do you feel about that theory?
    I don't buy into conspiracy theories.
    Go Hawks!!!!

  4. #2444
    Quote Originally Posted by KingHorse View Post
    But when their hours are cut, any money at all for insurance for a person who is young and healthy seems like a luxury. Again, speculation rules at this point, all we can do is guess what rational people will do when some things happen, and we're pretty shaky as to whether some of those things will happen the way we expect to begin with. Some of them are (reduced hours, dropped coverage altogether) but others are speculation based on human nature, which is notoriously unreliable.
    I'm curious what types of jobs you think are cutting hours from 30+ to less than 30. I can't imagine any good paying jobs are shifting that way. If you make $20k a year at 25 years old(12.80/hr @30 hours) then you'd pay $5/mo for health care. The penalty for that person would be $200/year. Why would anyone not pay $5/mo and get health care versus $200/yr for nothing. Most of the jobs that are talking about shifting are low wage hourly jobs. I'd imagine they aren't even in the $12.80/hr range.

    www.coveredca.com

    Also, the insurance offered by many of those jobs isn't worth the paper its written on. They really didn't have coverage for their $80/mo plan with its $10k year maximum benefit. One trip to the ER could easily wipe out the insurance they had. The insurance offered under the ACA, at least in CA, all have no more than $6500 out of pocket/year, with no maximum benefit. You get cancer with that old insurance you're screwed. You get cancer with an ACA plan, you have to pay off what is about a used car loan, but hey, you get cancer treatment.

  5. #2445
    The Lightbringer KingHorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    You are suggesting that they will accrue the cost of hiring new employees? Will they hire additional HR and management to cover these employees? If you are not stressing people to produce more, you are replacing them with additional risk and cost if employees.
    In a company of any real size, the cost is negligible. The proof is in the pudding: businesses are doing this, right now, and have been for a year or so. Businesses tend to do whatever is in their own best interest. They do what makes money. They don't do things for spite (at least not en masse). They're dropping full time people and replacing them, filling in HR as needed, and saving money. It's already happening. Has been for a while now. Are you denying that it's happening?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    People who the articles you linked claimed would not be able to sign up to exchanges, because of their state impeding them. The young and healthy people you claim will choose to not use exchanges. People who choose to pay the fine instead of use the provided exchanges.
    The people who choose not to participate are far outweighed by the people who don't participate through no choice of their own (employer no longer provides for them).

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    The attempts to repeal were something republicans thought would work?
    Who the fuck knows? It was an attempt, and a chance for the Senate to discuss it. I don't think they did, at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    That option is not available, due to the party that also wants to make Obamacare unavailable. Obamacare isn't the best solution, not even close, it's simply that or the crap we have now, where there is no speculation about it's failure.
    It's better for some, worse for some. It's a wash at the start, a disaster down the road, at least that's what it looks like it will be.
    I don't argue to be right, I argue to be proven wrong. Because I'm aware that the collective intelligence of the community likely has more to offer to me by enlightening me, than I do to an individual by "winning" an argument with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    I don't always wear tennis shoes, but when I do, I speak Russian. In French.

  6. #2446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    We should go back to Jim Crow and Segregation under your logic.

    I mean, it only affected about 10% of the population. Who gives a crap, am I right? 90% of Americans were exempt from Jim Crow ANYWAY!
    Democrats are the reason for Jim Crow and segregation laws.. don't forget that
    the most beautiful post I have ever read.. thank you Dr-1337 http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22624432

  7. #2447
    Quote Originally Posted by ishootblanks View Post
    Democrats are the reason for Jim Crow and segregation laws.. don't forget that
    Southern Democrats, which were MUCH different than the democrats of today. Parties shift platforms when its politically positive for them to do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak
    don't get mad at me because I didn't know you were a transethnic genderqueer otherkin neo-communist conservative tumblrist.
    Quote Originally Posted by sibut
    Just put Howard on the border patrol squad, because nothing gets past him.

  8. #2448
    Quote Originally Posted by Kcin14 View Post
    So I just have to ask how many bills did the Democrats in the Senate propose and pass in comparison to the amount of solutions the Republicans in the House suggested?
    House has passed bills all containing Rep wishlist demands.
    Senate bill containings no demands.

    Perhaps the issue is that the senate needs to make up some extreme left requests, and then the new middle ground for a compromise would be one with no changes.

  9. #2449
    Quote Originally Posted by ishootblanks View Post
    Democrats are the reason for Jim Crow and segregation laws.. don't forget that
    This is so god damn tired.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  10. #2450
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ishootblanks View Post
    Democrats are the reason for Jim Crow and segregation laws.. don't forget that
    The part of the Democratic Party responsible shifted to the Republican camp in the sixties and seventies.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  11. #2451
    I am Murloc! Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Southern Democrats, which were MUCH different than the democrats of today. Parties shift platforms when its politically positive for them to do so.
    Southern Democrats.

    Guess who they are ideologically closer to on the modern Political spectrum.

  12. #2452
    Quote Originally Posted by frumper View Post
    Link about your claim on exemptions

    As for Congress, they aren't exempt. The problem was with their staff. Their staff under the old system was provided insurance through payroll deductions where the government paid for much of the cost. Just like an employer pays much of the cost. The ACA switched the staffers to the exchanges but didn't offer to compensate them for losing their health coverage and having to pay out of pocket. Essentially they lost the benefit of their employer paying for a portion of their health care. Any normal person would see losing benefits as a pay cut. What was done was to allow staffers to put what the normal benefits contribution was towards their exchange costs. In essence, the government is still paying the same amount for benefits, its just paying them through the exchange.

    The exemptions for the labor unions were requested, and denied, because the labor unions want to have both employer contributions if they like what the company offers, or to be able to buy insurance on the exchanges with a subsidy. Currently the ACA only provides a subsidy if your employer doesn't offer insurance up to certain standards. Labor unions get much better insurance than the minimum standards, but they pay more for it. For some of the union members it would benefit them to be able to skip what their employer offers because it may be cheaper for them to buy it from the exchanges the ACA setup. In other words, they wanted the ability to buy insurance that the ACA provided. So the exemption is the opposite of why you think they wanted it.

    Nice sensationalism though. Btw, I'll have insurance for the first time in over a dozen years January 1st. I had the means, but not the ability to purchase it because my job didn't provide it and I've been denied for pre-existing conditions(taking a specific anti-biotic as a teenager). The system was terribly broken and costs were(and maybe still are) spiraling out of control. The ACA likely isn't done yet. I predict things like the congressional staffer exemption will go nationwide to help small businesses provide some support for employees getting coverage. I also think that what the labor unions want will eventually take place because it makes more economic sense for both employees and employers to let the employee choose the cheaper option.
    Congress is exempt, because they are not having their employers drop their coverage (unlike normal employee's who have employers). I was stating that even Big Union (who have supported obama for a long time) read the ACA and saw what would happen.. and begged to get off it.

    Also, The ACA is the largest "ya get what you pay for" service. I have been perusing the healthcare website, it is staggering to see difference in cost/benefits. Even better.. you can't see your options until you are fully registered. Which jacks up the "enrollment" numbers. My wife had to apply just to see what was on the website. Nothing they had compared to what I could get in the private sector (factoring in my specific family needs).

    ACA is one step closer to a single payer system.. which will fail. Don't believe me? Read this:
    Problem 7: The countries that have had single-payer systems for decades are slowly moving towards more private systems.

    Canada, the United Kingdom, and even Sweden are slowly moving away from public systems of health care and allowing the private sector to take over. In each of these countries, particularly Canada, their single-payer systems have been disasters. Five-year cancer survival rates are higher in the U.S. than those in Canada. Americans have greater access to preventive screening tests and have higher treatment rates for chronic illnesses. Only half of emergency room patients are treated in a timely manner. The physician shortage is so severe that some towns hold lotteries, where the winners gain access to a local doctor.

    The most vivid indictment of Canada’s system might be the fact that Canada's provincial governments rely on American medicine. Between 2006 and 2008, Ontario sent more than 160 patients to New York and Michigan for emergency neurosurgery. If Canada's single-payer system is preferable to our own, why would they send us their patients? (Hint: Because our system is better.)

    These problems are likely only the beginning of what would happen to our health care if the Democrats have their way. I believe a majority of the country already understands the dangers of this health care bill. Details, however, are very important, and opponents of this bill must emphasize (to their Congressmen and fellow voters) the fatal drawbacks inherent in a single-payer system.
    you don't think there will be death panels either? Remember Kathleen Sebellius and the young girl with end stage Cystic Fibrosis? Doctors said she was a prime candidate, childrens lungs are among the rarest organs donated, and she had very little time to live. Left to Sebellius.. the young girl would have died.. Even though there was an adult lung available for her.

  13. #2453
    Quote Originally Posted by KingHorse View Post
    In a company of any real size, the cost is negligible. The proof is in the pudding: businesses are doing this, right now, and have been for a year or so. Businesses tend to do whatever is in their own best interest. They do what makes money. They don't do things for spite (at least not en masse). They're dropping full time people and replacing them, filling in HR as needed, and saving money. It's already happening. Has been for a while now. Are you denying that it's happening?
    But, it started before Obamacare, while because of Obamacare, these people have access to exchanges they wouldn't have otherwise. They were doing this before Obamacare passed and are still doing it before the mandate. There is nothing to say that this has anything to do with Obamacare, other than providing these people with insurance exchanges.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingHorse View Post
    The people who choose not to participate are far outweighed by the people who don't participate through no choice of their own (employer no longer provides for them).
    Unlike yesterday, they do have an option of getting insurance through exchanges.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingHorse View Post
    Who the fuck knows? It was an attempt, and a chance for the Senate to discuss it. I don't think they did, at all.
    Doing something 40 times and expecting a different result is called insanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingHorse View Post
    It's better for some, worse for some. It's a wash at the start, a disaster down the road, at least that's what it looks like it will be.
    Do you think the current system is any good? This is what you think is a superior alternative?
    Go Hawks!!!!

  14. #2454
    It's cases like this that make me quite happy that 90% of my work is under the table. Go ahead and add a tax penalty to my tax to "encourage" me to jump on the bandwagon. And I realize that while my sitiuation is far from the norm, people would be suprized just how of us there are.

  15. #2455
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowchikabow View Post
    ACA is one step closer to a single payer system.. which will fail. Don't believe me? Read this:
    And your source for this is what? Alex Jones?

    The myth of Canadian "health refugees" is just that, a myth; the vast, vast majority of such people are those with deferrable treatments.

    you don't think there will be death panels either? Remember Kathleen Sebellius and the young girl with end stage Cystic Fibrosis? Doctors said she was a prime candidate, childrens lungs are among the rarest organs donated, and she had very little time to live. Left to Sebellius.. the young girl would have died.. Even though there was an adult lung available for her.
    No, I don't, because "death panels" are simply right wing spin for something that intelligent people call triage and cost/resource apportionment.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  16. #2456
    The Lightbringer KingHorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    No, it actually began in the summer of 2009. Nearly a year before Obamacare passed...
    I'm not sure where "at least this far back" deserves a "No, actually..." for a date a little farther back. /cough

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    Because it was cheap? 0 is still cheaper. Why did they choose to spend money, instead of being cheaper and not spending it? It being cheap makes no sense, when the alternative was 0.
    Again, speculation, human behavior, this has been covered already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    I don't buy into conspiracy theories.
    Sure you do. Just not all of them.
    I don't argue to be right, I argue to be proven wrong. Because I'm aware that the collective intelligence of the community likely has more to offer to me by enlightening me, than I do to an individual by "winning" an argument with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
    I don't always wear tennis shoes, but when I do, I speak Russian. In French.

  17. #2457
    Quote Originally Posted by frumper View Post
    As has been pointed out many times, non-essential personnel include much of the support system for the "essential" services. Also, the essential services aren't going to receive paychecks until the spending bills are passed. They will get IOUs. So that is 800k people out of work(eligible for UI), and maybe backpay(pay back UI if they do), and 1.4 million or so people working, all but the military without paychecks, backpay when bills are passed.
    wow, thats quite a lot of stuff.

    imo, having to sit down 24 hours before the shutdown (because we know its not like they had months and months to do this) for something like this is just silly. The spending bill for the most critical should be automatically passed, and only non essential services should be discussed within a reasonable date prior to the next review.

    silly government.. they just wanted to have ANOTHER vacation.

  18. #2458
    Quote Originally Posted by Thephayul View Post
    It's cases like this that make me quite happy that 90% of my work is under the table. Go ahead and add a tax penalty to my tax to "encourage" me to jump on the bandwagon. And I realize that while my sitiuation is far from the norm, people would be suprized just how of us there are.
    Why am I getting a children of the corn vibe here?
    Go Hawks!!!!

  19. #2459
    Can something be explained to me... I remember reading somewhere that the Democrats have control of both the House and the Senate, why don't they just pass the budget themselves and just ignore the Republicans?

  20. #2460
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    Why am I getting a children of the corn vibe here?
    I don't know, haven't murdered anyone lately but hey you never know.......

    On a serious note, the point I was making is that I personally really dont trust my government to consider whats right for me while making decisions. This includes my healthcare, with past evidence who in their right mind would? Hence doing most of my buisiness under the books

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