Government Shutting Down

[Thephayul]

It's cases like this that make me quite happy that 90% of my work is under the table. Go ahead and add a tax penalty to my tax to "encourage" me to jump on the bandwagon. And I realize that while my sitiuation is far from the norm, people would be suprized just how of us there are.

[Elegiac]

ACA is one step closer to a single payer system.. which will fail. Don't believe me? Read this:

And your source for this is what? Alex Jones?

The myth of Canadian "health refugees" is just that, a myth; the vast, vast majority of such people are those with deferrable treatments.

you don't think there will be death panels either? Remember Kathleen Sebellius and the young girl with end stage Cystic Fibrosis? Doctors said she was a prime candidate, childrens lungs are among the rarest organs donated, and she had very little time to live. Left to Sebellius.. the young girl would have died.. Even though there was an adult lung available for her.

No, I don't, because "death panels" are simply right wing spin for something that intelligent people call triage and cost/resource apportionment.

[KingHorse]

No, it actually began in the summer of 2009. Nearly a year before Obamacare passed...

I'm not sure where "at least this far back" deserves a "No, actually..." for a date a little farther back. /cough

Because it was cheap? 0 is still cheaper. Why did they choose to spend money, instead of being cheaper and not spending it? It being cheap makes no sense, when the alternative was 0.

Again, speculation, human behavior, this has been covered already.

I don't buy into conspiracy theories.

Sure you do. Just not all of them.

[wowaccounttom]

As has been pointed out many times, non-essential personnel include much of the support system for the "essential" services. Also, the essential services aren't going to receive paychecks until the spending bills are passed. They will get IOUs. So that is 800k people out of work(eligible for UI), and maybe backpay(pay back UI if they do), and 1.4 million or so people working, all but the military without paychecks, backpay when bills are passed.

wow, thats quite a lot of stuff.

imo, having to sit down 24 hours before the shutdown (because we know its not like they had months and months to do this) for something like this is just silly. The spending bill for the most critical should be automatically passed, and only non essential services should be discussed within a reasonable date prior to the next review.

silly government.. they just wanted to have ANOTHER vacation.

[Felya]

It's cases like this that make me quite happy that 90% of my work is under the table. Go ahead and add a tax penalty to my tax to "encourage" me to jump on the bandwagon. And I realize that while my sitiuation is far from the norm, people would be suprized just how of us there are.

Why am I getting a children of the corn vibe here?

[Baelic]

Can something be explained to me... I remember reading somewhere that the Democrats have control of both the House and the Senate, why don't they just pass the budget themselves and just ignore the Republicans?

[Thephayul]

Why am I getting a children of the corn vibe here?

I don't know, haven't murdered anyone lately but hey you never know.......

On a serious note, the point I was making is that I personally really dont trust my government to consider whats right for me while making decisions. This includes my healthcare, with past evidence who in their right mind would? Hence doing most of my buisiness under the books

[Felya]

I'm not sure where "at least this far back" deserves a "No, actually..." for a date a little farther back. /cough

You are using events that began before Obamacare, to justify why it's bad. Why not google something that justifies your opinion, instead of trying to insult me?

Again, speculation, human behavior, this has been covered already.

What do you mean? It's cheaper to not provide insurance before Obamacare, than it was to provide it. If the goal was being cheaper, as you said, there is no amount of speculation or human behavior that makes 0 more expensive.

Sure you do. Just not all of them.

What are you talking about?

[KingHorse]

But, it started before Obamacare, while because of Obamacare, these people have access to exchanges they wouldn't have otherwise. They were doing this before Obamacare passed and are still doing it before the mandate. There is nothing to say that this has anything to do with Obamacare, other than providing these people with insurance exchanges.

Correlation/causation and all that, but it was predicted that the bill would have exactly this effect, and lo and behold, here it is.

Unlike yesterday, they do have an option of getting insurance through exchanges.

Yep.

Doing something 40 times and expecting a different result is called insanity.

The original discussion about this was "they should have tried to talk it out" and sending them a bill is evidence that they did just that.

Do you think the current system is any good? This is what you think is a superior alternative?

Well, I could see where you might think that, seeing as I've said over and over again that this bill is shit and we need a single payer system. But again, you're just looking to argue against what I say because you're convinced that ACA is great, despite evidence to the contrary.

[Felya]

Can something be explained to me... I remember reading somewhere that the Democrats have control of both the House and the Senate, why don't they just pass the budget themselves and just ignore the Republicans?

Republicans have senate...

[frumper]

Congress is exempt, because they are not having their employers drop their coverage (unlike normal employee's who have employers). I was stating that even Big Union (who have supported obama for a long time) read the ACA and saw what would happen.. and begged to get off it.

Also, The ACA is the largest "ya get what you pay for" service. I have been perusing the healthcare website, it is staggering to see difference in cost/benefits. Even better.. you can't see your options until you are fully registered. Which jacks up the "enrollment" numbers. My wife had to apply just to see what was on the website. Nothing they had compared to what I could get in the private sector (factoring in my specific family needs).

ACA is one step closer to a single payer system.. which will fail. Don't believe me? Read this:


you don't think there will be death panels either? Remember Kathleen Sebellius and the young girl with end stage Cystic Fibrosis? Doctors said she was a prime candidate, childrens lungs are among the rarest organs donated, and she had very little time to live. Left to Sebellius.. the young girl would have died.. Even though there was an adult lung available for her.

They aren't exempt. The staffers do get special rules because the law screwed them specifically. They would have lost their government plan which would have been a large paycut. They were the only government workers afaik that had this happen to them, I'm not sure why the law would have been written that way.

It's nice to say a while 160 Canadians came to the US for neurosurgery. Are you proposing that 0 Canadians came to the US before they had universal healthcare in 1984? Do you think your insurance company is any more apt to spend money when it may feel it doesn't have to? Why would you trust the insurance company over the government? Its funny to say all of that because in the end, its the same health companies that are providing health care under the ACA. You can predict all of the government death panels you want. I predict the aliens we found at roswell will shoot the 64th president from their focused earthquake machine making him vaporized into a cloud so farmers in Virginia get an extra day of rain. Doesn't mean crap, but I can predict too.



But yea, honestly, when you said, "don't believe me? read this:" I totally buy into what you're saying now. The lack of where your text comes from doesn't discourage the sheer integrity that the words command through its righteous prose. Give me a break.

[ishootblanks]

This is so god damn tired.

I'm sorry.. does that long history of racism tarnish the spotless image of the Democrat party?

- - - Updated - - -

Republicans have senate...

I hope you're not American...

Republicans control 228 seats in the US House of Representatives.. Democrats control 54 seats in the US Senate.. and the Presidency..

[frumper]

Republicans have senate...

Backwards. Republicans have the house, Democrats Senate.

2009 Dems had Senate, House, Executive
2011 Dems had Senate, Executive Repubs gained House
2013 Same as 2011

[bowchikabow]

And your source for this is what? Alex Jones?

The myth of Canadian "health refugees" is just that, a myth; the vast, vast majority of such people are those with deferrable treatments.

I didn't say anything about refugees.. but yeah, the direct quote is abit extreme. Though, can you source the deferrable treatments?

No, I don't, because "death panels" are simply right wing spin for something that intelligent people call triage and cost/resource apportionment.

While the word itself is quite evocative, you can't call letting someone die while being an ideal candidate for something live saving anything else when a lone bureaucratic was going to decide her fate. While she is not the only example, she is a famous one, and so made sense to use since more people are likely to remember.

By that logic (triage and cost/resource appointment) it could make sense to turn down the treatment for say... a middle aged person (35+), or someone whose problem was self inflicted (habitual smoker.. etc). But not for someone who, barring a terrible twist of fate, will get over half a century of life, an lifetime of appreciation for they have, and such. Examples like that are popularize the name, and the idea behind "death panel".

[Sunseeker]

Republicans have senate...

No, Republicans have the House, 201(D)/234(R). Currently the Democrats have the Senate, 54(D)/45(R).

AS per: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0774721.html

[Felya]

Correlation/causation and all that, but it was predicted that the bill would have exactly this effect, and lo and behold, here it is.

Something that exist before the event that caused it, is irrational. Obamacare not existing when the trend you claim it caused began, has no causation or correlation issues. Because it didn't exist...

The original discussion about this was "they should have tried to talk it out" and sending them a bill is evidence that they did just that.

Original discussion as in before 2010? Voting 40 times has nothing to do with talking it out. They did the same thing 40 times, expecting one of them to work? Why not send a bill with the contents of what you want, instead of the same repeal 40 times?

Well, I could see where you might think that, seeing as I've said over and over again that this bill is shit and we need a single payer system. But again, you're just looking to argue against what I say because you're convinced that ACA is great, despite evidence to the contrary.

Single payer is not an option. We agree it's the best option. That's settled... Now how about answering the question? Why did you avoid the question, to assert that I think ACA is great? I already said, it's not even a good option, it's simply the best option of those available.

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No, Republicans have the House, 201(D)/234(R). Currently the Democrats have the Senate, 54(D)/45(R).

AS per: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0774721.html

Yeah, I misspoke, my bad.

[Pitkanen]

Can something be explained to me... I remember reading somewhere that the Democrats have control of both the House and the Senate, why don't they just pass the budget themselves and just ignore the Republicans?

A majority of people in the house would pass a clean CR if it was offered. The only way it can be offered is if the House majority leader Boehner makes it happen. He wanted to pass a clean CR on September 10th actually, but the tea party neutered him.
http://www.journalgazette.net/articl...60/1066/NEWS03

But yeah, if Boehner calls a vote on a clean CR it might mean losing his position or house leader, or possibly he'll get railed by the Koch Brothers soundboards in the primaries and lose to primaries to a tea party member.

[Felya]

I hope you're not American...

Republicans control 228 seats in the US House of Representatives.. Democrats control 54 seats in the US Senate.. and the Presidency..

You hope I'm not American, because I misspoke? If you read the thread, I've said it correctly, each and every other time.

[Elegiac]

I'm sorry.. does that long history of racism tarnish the spotless image of the Democrat party?

As opposed to the present, extant racism, homophobia, and misogyny that characterizes the Republican party?

[Sunseeker]

While the word itself is quite evocative, you can't call letting someone die while being an ideal candidate for something live saving anything else when a lone bureaucratic was going to decide her fate. While she is not the only example, she is a famous one, and so made sense to use since more people are likely to remember.

The problem is, Hospitals do this all the time. Decisions are constantly made between saving Guy A and Guy B. That's what "transplant committees" are for, they're basically identical to the "death panels" the right-wing is freaking out about. Groups of doctors who make decisions as to who will receive what treatment based on cost and effectiveness of care.