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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    - Making the PC a globally known console to consider cool to use.
    What? PC is a console now? And they had had to fight to earn their rightful place among the other consoles? What the hell? I think you have it completely backwards.

  2. #62
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Actually, this one is (assuming we're talking about subscription-based MMOs that is):
    http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/TotalSubs.png
    That's like saying people buying movies is declining if you don't take into account DVDs or blu-rays.

    The MMO market has evolved to have a massive F2P section which naturally entices lots of people in. The number of players in the MMO genre is still very very high.

    OP's entire post is based on utterly ludicrous points "most of us were bullied or have underlying issues", yeah nah, that's just projecting so he doesn't feel like he's alone.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    What? PC is a console now? And they had had to fight to earn their rightful place among the other consoles? What the hell? I think you have it completely backwards.
    This tells a lot about how old the OP is.

    I grew up PC > console > PC > console > PC - we had 286's before the NES. There was a time when EB games had equal shelf space for PC and console games.

  4. #64
    Dreadlord Aurabolt's Avatar
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    I think me and the guy I'm quoting below might be the only two people who actually got what the OP was saying. This IS the internet. Everyone entitled to their opinion. You don't like, don't comment.

    One of the reasons I've stopping being active on forums in general is something I've noticed in the last few years: Folks will look for some fault in your opinion just for the sake of having a counter-arguement. It's one thing if a poster says something factually incorrect but if it's clearly the poster's opinion on a particular subject, you can object without flaming them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iseeyou View Post
    Lot of truth in Op post.

    Hard to deal with tho.
    Ditto this.

    As someone whose first MMO was WoW and made their second GW2 two months ago but has tried other MMOs (SWTOR, DCUO, Skyrim, Rift and LoL to name a few), major props to the OP for putting this together first and foremost.

    I agree with it 100%.

    The moment "Quality New MMOs" became the expectation was the moment the end appeared on the horizon. Mind you, EQ/EQII are proof some MMOs can withstand the test of time. I expect WoW to join that list one day, too. Do I think Blizzard is looking to continue Azaroth's story post-WoW in the near future? No.

    Even so, one thing I have become acutely aware of is the bloated expectations of the MMO Community or rather, gamers in general.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    I am the law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amry View Post
    Only one faction receiving something completely new? Absolutely not going to happen, the QQ is so massive it will break the QQ Pillar in the Elemental Plane of QQ and unleash Kiukiuwing, the Aspect of QQs.

  5. #65
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    People who don't see the problems with the MMO market surely baffle me. Has anything had an upward trend in subscribers in YEARS? There's more competition, which I guess could be taken as positivity or whatever in the market, but almost every MMO is having trouble holding onto subscribers, and has in the past few years, along with some real notable failures to boot, hell, even things that were praised to heck and back, like Guild Wars 2, has trouble attracting and holding on to people.

    Basically, WoW is the only major success story in the genre right now, and it's on a downward trend, too.

    The real problem, I think, is the genre itself carries a WHOLE lot of baggage (Grinding, repetition, monthly fees, slowness to get the "real game", being judged and controlled by strangers, and so on) that a lot of people don't want to deal with, BUT a lot of modern games have adapted some of the more appealing/addictive aspects of MMOs, without any of the baggage. (i.e. unlocks and levels in FPS's, and what not). Most people probably don't want to slog through a bunch of "trivial" content to get to the "real" part of a game, to be judged by a pile of strangers to be deemed worthy of playing it, when they can just turn on some other kind of game, shoot some people, gain a few levels, get an item, and call it a day.

    My two cents, though! Take it for what you will.

    (Also, I think the popularity of MMOs is, and has long been overblown in the Western markets.)

  6. #66
    Mechagnome
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    I highly doubt that the age of MMO's is over. I like wow alot still to this day, im playing it because of the pvp on it. But one day when I quit ill be picking up neverwinter, I almost did already but it had a few flaws on it.

  7. #67
    Pandaren Monk Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShimmerSwirl View Post
    What happened was they removed any emotional hook from the game and replaced it with monotonous expectation.

    Remember when you used to feel excited? Or scared? Or frustrated? Remember the thrill of getting the drop, killing that rare, downing that boss, getting that unique ability? Blizzard has a nice, neat, "sensible" approach to WoW now, but the game no longer generates any emotional response that generates loyalty and true fans. In their quest to make things simple, accessible, streamlined, and all the all Blizzard buzzwords, all the really did was rip the heart out of the game and replace it with empty repetition.
    This person gets it.
    I'm in control, I Am Your Pain...
    After this you won't be the same...
    This is My Time, I make the rules.
    YOU MESS WITH THIS AND YOU DIE LIKE A FOOL!

  8. #68
    There are problems with the genre but I don't consider it even close to dead.

    I'd actually chalk the players up to it's "decline" (numbers are up - quality is done) for various factors.
    There is less hook - less emotional impact - EVERYTHING needs to be changed to accommodate /somebody/ - The communities are turning toxic and people will just blame others for their lack of anything.

    I'm still enjoying WoW to it's fullest as a game - The only times I've been disappointed is off it's piss-poor playerbase wanting this or that nerfed, insulting people who are "better" at the game than them even if it wasn't "shoved down their throat", wanting everything changed because of their own stupidity (waah i accidentally flagged being the biggest load of crap I've seen since I started.) and the fact people can get away with most everything.
    (Took Blizzard over 6 months to finally deal with a harassment case that was ongoing for that long on and off.)

    I wouldn't blame the games - I'd blame the fact they opened it to everybody and then tried changing the genre/games for everybody who couldn't take it as it's worth.
    Eventually they're going to please nobody.

    -- Signature by /the/ Crazytaco --

  9. #69
    There has never been a more ample time to say,
    tl;dr

    Post constructively, please.
    Last edited by Daetur; 2013-09-28 at 04:06 PM.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Orkwuzhere View Post
    Then Final Fantasy 14 is going to be screwed like WoW because it's a grind fest, and you need to waddle through a horrible main plot to try everything the game has to offer* (crafting and gathering are pretty painful to go through, and you will have to grind all of the other classes after you get your first class to 50). That fake bar doesn't move very fast even when you have leveled a bunch of classes.

    *Making you unlock the Auction House let alone a bank is probably one of the stupidest fucking things in a MMO, and is just as bad as WoW daily grinding.
    Rofl. FFXIV is a grindfest due to it being such a new game. The fuck do you think WoW was when it began? When SWTOR began? When Rift began? Have you even played FFXIV? It's been out for a month and idiots like you are complaining because of the grind that it takes to get to a higher item level.

    And you're implying that WoW currently isn't a grindfest? LFR, LFR, LFR, LFR, did I trip on my LFR? Then you run Normal and Flex and if you're a "leet gaymer" you'll run Heroics rather than normals.

    Get outta heya.

  11. #71
    People are going to be all over EverQuest:Next when it comes out. It's features are just too innovative yet so similar to super casual games like Minecraft, with fantasy strategy/RPG elements thrown in that even housewives are probably going to enjoy picking it up and playing it even if just casual.
    Maddest of them all.

  12. #72
    Aurabolt.

    You sir, are exactly what I was hoping to find.

    And yes, this is exactly what I was trying to say.

  13. #73
    If I was to take this thread seriously

    I'd have to conclude that the AGE OF VIDEOGAMES has ended
    that is equal as saying the age of MMO's has ended

    The lack of logic in OP is disturbing

  14. #74
    Legendary! Arbs's Avatar
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    I have heard alot of people say it, The EQ/WoW formula is out of date. All these past failed MMOs just try to copy them & think they would succeed without trying something new or build on to it.

    WoW toke aspects from EQ / D&D and it built off that, An it grew from that. Recent MMOs just tried to recreate Vanilla WoW & failed.

    Games like GW2 / FF14 / Wildstar & Secret World have had fresh new kind of ideas to there MMOs. The companies who made those games didn't just copy WoW & release there game saying we are better than WoW or have a budget so high that you wonder where all that money went too after you seen the final product.

    Lovestar said it the best: MMOs are not "over" now, any more than they were over when EverQuest replaced Ultima Online, or WoW replaced EverQuest.

    For all we know Wildstar could replace WoW & continue the cycle or be a flop like the rest. We don't even know if another MMO could ever top WoW, but one thing we know MMOs are far from over. They just they can't use the old WoW / EQ Formula they need to create new exciting things to keep you playing. Most of us have played WoW for 5+ & some of us are still playing since Day 1. For some of us WoW will be are last MMO & we are very hesitant to leave after all the years of playing the game to start fresh in a new mmo if that game doesn't give us the spark we got when playing WoW or are first MMO.

    one more thing F2P is fad & will simmer out eventually, people are already seeing how bad they can get over time, thats the only thing from MMOs I see dieing out,
    Last edited by Arbs; 2013-09-28 at 04:38 PM.

  15. #75
    Over 9000! Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    I can see how wow has stifled the development of mmos a bit...like the jump from 2d games to 3d games was huge however since wow progress hasn't been nearly as great, it's more about refining what currently works rather than expanding into new areas.

  16. #76
    Epic! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    Most of us, came from a background, that background was stereotypically escapism, because most of us had been bullied in school or had underlying issues
    Facepalmed HARD.

    Feel sorry for you, but because you were bullied and at the same time were playing wow doesn't mean that every people playing wow were like you...
    I always played with people who were socially integrated, from vanilla until now (I even remember raiding in Wolk with some lawyer(who even played from his office)/architect/physician/doctor in our raid. Far from some nerdy nolife)

    The thing is... WoW is a great MMO, it was so great, that these things became an obvious marketing campaign, in many ways we owe WoW a lot including and not limited to:
    - Making the PC a globally known console to consider cool to use.
    Mmmh, no, not at all. If one game may have this title it's counter strike (adn that's a big may). But even if wow was/is a great PC success. PC gaming don't really owe much to wow.


    Don't really understand why some people feel the urge to write an essay about wow cosmic failure on this forum every week in total contradiction of reality... WoW was a great success, still is a great success. If you don't like it, move over. We don't care about your feeling on how wow destroyed your world.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Tierbook View Post
    it peaked a few years ago, its been on a downward spiral since then
    Nope. Mmos are as popular as ever. Or do you think all these companies releasing mmos are clueless? As long as there is a market for mmos we will continue to have them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShimmerSwirl View Post
    What happened was they removed any emotional hook from the game and replaced it with monotonous expectation.

    Remember when you used to feel excited? Or scared? Or frustrated? Remember the thrill of getting the drop, killing that rare, downing that boss, getting that unique ability? Blizzard has a nice, neat, "sensible" approach to WoW now, but the game no longer generates any emotional response that generates loyalty and true fans. In their quest to make things simple, accessible, streamlined, and all the all Blizzard buzzwords, all the really did was rip the heart out of the game and replace it with empty repetition.
    Ever think to consider this is a result of playing the same game for 9 years and has nothing to do with the actual game itself? New players are having just as much fun if not more so than we ever did. Wow is fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raintola View Post
    "We feel like MOP has killed the community but no, in reality, WE killed the community. It happened in Wrath Of the Lich King LONG before now when we were made by Blizzard to be so hyped up about competition that we became competitive, we fought each other, we hurt each other, now we regret making those choices but its too late to go back."

    I don't recall Blizzard making us do anything in this game except paying to be able to log in.
    Didn't you know? Blizzard has people holding guns to everyones head forcing them to use queues instead of forming their own groups manually. I said it before and I will say it again, if community is dead it is because players are lazy and expect Blizzard to make their community for them. While everyone is bitching about the "death" of community, everyone else is enjoying newfound communities that are rising out of cross realm tech such as oqueue and openraid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    I won't argue that MMOs aren't a declining breed.

    I think one of the biggest things that killed the classic EQ-style MMORPG is the fact the internet has become so pervasive in gaming.

    If you'd mentioned the idea that in 2013 you'd have access to thousands of games to digitally download and play at your leisure (Steam) to a 2004 WoW dev, they'd probably never believe you.

    I mean people throw a hissy fit about games like SimCity or Diablo 3 having always-online components to them, but if you didn't have to see the server select screen most of us would just play the game without even realizing it had internet connectivity.

    Almost every game these days has some online component to it, even Nintendo's embraced it. Modern MMORPGs are trying as hard as possible to no longer seem like an evolution on Everquest, but instead to feel like a single-player RPG with online components.

    And that's where WoW is inevitably going to die, not because players hate it. But because new players would rather play Final Fantasy XL with online components you don't even notice instead of playing a game like WoW where the online is in your face all the time.
    What on earth are you even talking about? I have never seen someone bend over backwards so much just to find new and interesting ways to bash Wow. My god just move on already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    MMOs are not "over" now, any more than they were over when EverQuest replaced Ultima Online, or WoW replaced EverQuest.

    The WoW Formula is dying out, though — and rightfully so. It's painfully outdated.

    MMOs are mutating, as devs continue to iterate and innovate old concepts, and an entire multi-generational vertical-and-horizontal social complex of gamers evolves and grows up in a gaming world almost entirely saturated with online interaction from the beginning.

    If anything, persistent, social, interactable worlds are becoming the gold standard for a lot of genres or game designs. It's less that "MMOs are dead" and more that MMOs have melted and seeped into the fiber of every genre.

    Maybe it's more that the need to label stuff "MMO!!!!" is dying off because, well, yeah... duh it's online and full of other people. Why wouldn't it be?

    If you're referring specifically to the "grind-and-gear" model of MMORPGs, then, yes, those are on the outs because it's a — if you'll pardon my frankness — stupid waste of time, and earning stuff in the real world is more fun than grinding up a meter in a fake one you won't even be playing in 6 months. Especially if you're paying for the privilege of doing it.
    A key element of mmos is the grind and you aren't going to find many that don't have some form of it. Just because you personally don't enjoy it doesn't make it bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guinzil View Post
    Gamers of the new generation generally* don't match up with the characteristics of old MMORPGs (the "Korean grindcore" types). They no longer have the ability or desire to devote a lot of their time to a single game and are much less willing to repeat boring tasks at the prospect of rewards. They want pretty much instant gratification and gameplay without much hassle and waiting.

    So while the kind of MMO's you saw 10-15 years ago are a dying breed (in the West at least), the "Age of MMOs" definitely hasn't ended yet. MMOs have simply evolved to be more suitable with the new generation of gamers.



    * Note: generally. As in, a generalization. There may be outliers. Don't bother responding something like "hey ur theory is flawed cause im from this generation and i still love doing this and that"
    Where are people getting this notion that gamers don't want to spend time gaming? No. Just no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    I will give you the loss of community. From wotlk into cataclysm where we saw more queues for content, I felt the game diminish for me. I found it harder to meet new players, PVP was where I found my self and I lacked the computer to stay truly competitive.

    Why did it diminish for me? Because I found queue based content.... creepy. Silent people everywhere, not a word spoken, not a hello, not a hey lets get ready.... just a creepy silence. More often than not I would be in a 5 man where not a word was spoken by anyone other than me. I found it odd.

    I tried to form my own groups for 5 mans, and I managed it many times, but it got harder to accomplish as time went on. People just told me to queue up and shut up. I am fairly social and even on other game websites I find players who do not even type a good luck or have fun to be creepy.
    This sounds to be more of a personal problem to me. I rarely have silent groups in LFD or LFR and many people I meet have been quite friendly and talkative. Community exists but only if you are a part of it. Blizzard never has and never will build community for you.

  18. #78
    Stood in the Fire
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    Ok .

    Responding to a thread to only say "ok" or "cool story," et cetera contributes nothing and is considered spam. Please post constructively in the future.
    Last edited by Daetur; 2013-09-28 at 06:53 PM.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by dess View Post
    I wish i was a mod so I could close such threads.

    Post constructively, please.
    I wonder if the mods are ever going to get it through their thick skulls that when threads generate repeated posts like this that maybe just maybe they have merit to what they are saying in response to the OP. Maybe instead of infracting people for "non constructive" posts they should start infracting the people who make these non constructive threads instead. Unfortunately that will never happen because clearly the mods want to keep these forums as unproductive and hostile as possible rather than actually doing their job to promote constructive discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Instead of wishing you were the sole arbiter of what others can and cannot discuss, you could easily remove yourself from the conversation by simply not clicking on said topic.

    Shocking, I know.
    While he may not have elaborated on why he would close the thread, I think more than a few others have done a decent job of it. The thread is based on false premises and filled with stating opinion as fact and is incredibly arrogant and condescending. There honestly is nothing to discuss here.

    Infracted. Please, do avoid discussing subjects like moderation on open thread. You are welcome to contact the moderation team if you feel that it's wrongly handled, but it doesn't serve well to continue to pick up a subject that has been warned about before.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2013-09-29 at 12:48 AM.

  20. #80
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    I wonder if the mods are ever going to get it through their thick skulls that when threads generate repeated posts like this that maybe just maybe they have merit to what they are saying in response to the OP. Maybe instead of infracting people for "non constructive" posts they should start infracting the people who make these non constructive threads instead. Unfortunately that will never happen because clearly the mods want to keep these forums as unproductive and hostile as possible rather than actually doing their job to promote constructive discussion.
    Yeah it's annoying from time to time, certain threads clearly made to inflame and anger "WoW is dying thread #10000323" are allowed to run and run, yet people calling out the thread get punished

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