View Poll Results: Should determination stack and not disapear once you kill a boss?

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    20 33.90%
  • No let the noobs wipe.

    34 57.63%
  • Not sure.

    5 8.47%
  • Good idea but i would like to add...

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  1. #1
    Scarab Lord Descense's Avatar
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    Angry A lfr change that should be added now!

    Ok so 2nd wing for 3 hours and 30 min with no loot at end is not my kind of fun.

    What blizzard needs to add is that every time your group wipes on boss it adds determination stack. But unlike as its now, this buff STACKS and it will not disapear till the last boss is killed.
    Main reason why is this needed, its because if you have already low dps that almost kills a boss with 5 stacks of determination on enrage timer you should not be punished on next one with few low dps (or healing) for killing it.

    Leaving a group is NOT a option.

    In total i had:
    Dragon: 3 wipes
    Machine: 3 wipes
    Shamans: 6 wipes
    Orc: 7 wipes
    = 19 determination stacks

    Well it would make lfr much faster and fun...unlike the horror we have right now. And it would be abused. If some1 in raid said... lets wipe 10 times PLZ he would be kicked instant anyway.

    And yes i know some people are learning the fights....but stil....new people come every week and go.

  2. #2
    I would be completely fine with this but LFR isn't aimed at me, so I'd be promoting "ruining" another demographics content. I am currently raiding heroics and I only go into LFR to just out set bonus/rotations/changes etc. This would just ensure it's an easier time for me, but at the same time I'm not sure how I feel ablout watering down LFR even more for those who it is aimed at, I don't know what that demographic needs.

    TLDR: Great for me, not sure how it affects LFR's intended audience.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    I would be completely fine with this but LFR isn't aimed at me, so I'd be promoting "ruining" another demographics content. I am currently raiding heroics and I only go into LFR to just out set bonus/rotations/changes etc. This would just ensure it's an easier time for me, but at the same time I'm not sure how I feel ablout watering down LFR even more for those who it is aimed at, I don't know what that demographic needs.

    TLDR: Great for me, not sure how it affects LFR's intended audience.
    This is exactly how I feel. I don't care at all about having LFR being challenging or even engaging content, because it's a means to an end for me. I just want to try and fill in missing set bonuses or select gear slots for alts. The easier and faster it can be, the better. I'm already seeing the content on normal and Flex, so I really don't care about LFR "feeling" like a raid or having any challenge whatsoever. For me, it's not social enough and it's a toxic enough environment that it'll never be "fun," so I just want it to be over as quickly and painlessly as possible. For that reason, I would support this change.

    However, I know there are some people who only raid LFR, and may enjoy the feeling of progressing or working hard on a boss, and, since I am not LFR's intended audience, it is not my place to say "take that away to make things easier for me."

  4. #4
    Eh, I'd rather be able to select which bosses I want to queue for. I hate having to queue for an entire wing, only to already be past the only boss I need.

  5. #5
    Having done LFR, I think the abilities just need to be less punishing for it's demographic. These would be my suggestions personally.

    Galakras - All that really needs to be done here is to reduce the rate at which proto drakes in the air gain the fire buff, reduce the knockback from the first tower boss (yes, even more), and make the second tower boss not hit so hard. Stop the wave of adds after the second proto drake wave and after like 30 seconds, the cannons at the top auto fire the boss down. Galakras himself doesn't need to be changed.

    Iron Juggernaut - Less damage on ignite armor on the tank in p1, reduce laser initial damage slightly. In p2, just make shock pulse not knockback at all. Remove enrage timer.

    Dark shamans - The duration of toxic storm should be shorter and about 70% of its current damage, shouldn't follow people either. Ashen wall needs to happen less often. Foul geyser's splash needs to deal less damage. Falling ash should not one shot if people are in it (a lot of people die to this). Remove enrage timer.

    Nazgrim - Ravager/Aftershock damage should be reduced by half. Arcweavers/Shamans should have slightly less health. Nazgrim should not spawn adds at 10%. Remove his enrage.

    It's really dumb to have enrage timers in LFR, they removed all of the ones in the previous LFRs like ToT/MSV/HoF, not sure why they kept SoO one in. It's not like you can stack healers in LFR and all this promotes is kicking people/waiting till you have high determination stacks.
    Last edited by Angelicat; 2013-09-28 at 04:09 PM.

  6. #6
    Scarab Lord Descense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lunchbox2042 View Post
    Eh, I'd rather be able to select which bosses I want to queue for. I hate having to queue for an entire wing, only to already be past the only boss I need.
    Happens to all of us. With this change there would be much less people to switch araund = faster quee.

  7. #7
    Imo no. If players always have 10 stacks when they reach nazgrim they dont learn to do it the right way. I do not know if my gaming mentality is just old school. I know that the instant gratification generation is growing now in WoW, but I am used to having to work for stuff.

    My philosophy is that I believe that the way players should win in games (this applies to any game aswell as real life) is by getting better, learning and adapting. Games should not be made easier and easier and easier until players can beat them, that encourages no self improvement. Instead the players should get better and better until they can beat it. This of course only applies if the difficulty is reasonable. That way finally overcoming a challenge is more rewarding.
    -I finally managed to get good enough to beat this level!
    is always a far better feeling than
    -The game developers nerfed the content so it is so easy that even I can do it!

    If things are made so easy that it does not matter if you are good or bad, you still complete it, players will never understand "Hey, maybe I am not so good at this. I should try to improve!". Wiping is necessary to encourage improvement. Especially in content like LFR that is already extremely extremely easy, it does not really need to be even easier.

    Lets just pull some numbers out of my ass, lets say heroic requires you to play your class to 100%, normal to 75%, flex to 50% and LFR to 25%. Nerfing LFR further would not really be benefitial as it would only increase the gap between it and higher difficulties. While LFR can be hard to some people relatively speaking, objectively speaking, LFR is extremely easy and simple. So I do not see how further nerfs is benefitial, but that is just the 90's generation gamer inside me speaking.

    The big probem LFRs has now, is that with flex, most real raiders dont bother doing LFR. Which means there is noone around to carry the LFR raiders. All previous institutions of LFR has been based that a few people in the group are from raiding guilds, and that those players carry the entire group due to overincentivised drops in LFR. Now with Flex, even though I could use a few upgrades on my alts in LFR, there is just noway in hell that I would queue up for LFR. It takes 20 minutes to do a flex wing, I rather do that than carry people in LFR. What you are seeing is not LFR becoming harder, it is the raiders disappearing from the LFR demographic.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-09-28 at 04:36 PM.
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  8. #8
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Why should LFR - that is already so much easier - now also make it even more easier? You have to suffere wipes on flex and normal and you have to suffer insane amounts of wipes on heroic.

    If you have no patience for wipes in LFR - just quit any kind of raiding already.

    That from somebody who once raided progressive and now only has time for LFR and / or Flex
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  9. #9
    Fluffy Kitten LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Why should LFR - that is already so much easier - now also make it even more easier? You have to suffere wipes on flex and normal and you have to suffer insane amounts of wipes on heroic.

    If you have no patience for wipes in LFR - just quit any kind of raiding already.

    That from somebody who once raided progressive and now only has time for LFR and / or Flex
    Wipes in LFR are different than wipes in normal raiding environments. Normally, you guys discuss what went wrong and everybody fixes their shit. In LFR, maybe 5 people will fix their issues, the rest will keep tunnel visioning and drooling on their keyboards with absolutely no change.

  10. #10
    Scarab Lord Descense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Why should LFR - that is already so much easier - now also make it even more easier? You have to suffere wipes on flex and normal and you have to suffer insane amounts of wipes on heroic.

    If you have no patience for wipes in LFR - just quit any kind of raiding already.

    That from somebody who once raided progressive and now only has time for LFR and / or Flex
    I wish i could that...but trinkets dont like to drop in normal. And if you progress seriosly you need every bit of dps.
    Not to say if you gear up a new alt it can be pain in ass to get 522 gear because no1 raids tot any more.
    I look on lfr like 5 mans... AKA the dungeons we never get.

  11. #11
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Here's a different idea:

    This relies on the idea that the raid bosses in a wing are progressively more difficult (which is arguable but whatever):

    LFR wing opens: Fresh runs would start with two stacks of determination. If they get through the first boss with a one-shot, the group would have one stack of determination for the next boss. If the raid wipes once, then the next boss will continue to have two; if two wipes then the next boss starts with three, etc.

    Stacks would carry over from boss-to-boss with good groups that can one-shot things having progressively less help as they go along and worse groups more help from determination stacks. So determination stacks would adjust based on how well the group is doing as measured by the number of wipes/resets.

    More difficult wings could start a bit higher. Over time as people learn the fights and gear up one could imagine reducing the number of stacks that you start with globally.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-09-28 at 07:04 PM.
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  12. #12
    Just did a 2nd wing clear then. It's fucking horrid.

    I'm a blood dk (521 ilvl), pulling ~200K dps and 40K hps.

    Average raid dps was 61K.....

    3 hours and 10 minutes to clear 2nd wing. 4 wipes on galrakas, 2 wipes on juggernaut, 6 wipes on shamans, 5 wipes on nazgrim.

    Never doing LFR again.

  13. #13
    The LFR mechanics are fine, if you did the fight once, there's almost no reason to ever cause a wipe. The problem is there are some people that don't know anything about their class or encounters and won't try to learn anything about them, even if there's a dungeon journal tab at the bottom lol. From there, you can either make the fight so easy that people never need to learn or follow mechanics, or you can add one or two in and some people will wipe. From there, it's all opinionated, I personally think that LFR needs *some* mechanics that should be followed. At some point it's not really a game anymore, but just running around and mindlessly killing stuff lol.

  14. #14
    A LFR change that should be implemented right NOW?

    I expected to read something interesting.

    How about 'Player must have completed Proving Grounds: Bronze' in whatever specialization they have selected.

    Or even better, a LFR tool that prompts you to gem and enchant your gear before queueing.

    Or keep a track on yoru account (like Steam do) for your votekicks.
    Last edited by Jamesmarcus; 2013-09-28 at 07:45 PM.

  15. #15
    I went in LFR yesterday, entered at Iron Juggernaut (with one determination stack) and did the boss ~5-10 seconds into its enrage. Decided to actually do something for the group instead of whining on forums, found a warrior who wanted to help and 3-tanked shamans while explaining how that tactic is executed, two shot the boss. Did the same thing for Nazgrim, this time putting up a green flare (you can DPS the boss) and a red flare (you can't DPS the boss) and explaining everyone what to do. Oneshot it. That, coupled with raid warnings during the fight, was enough to vastly reduce time I spent in it. If you instead of creating this post took the five minutes you wrote to explain what to do to your group this wouldn't even be needed in the first place.
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  16. #16
    Warchief Packers01's Avatar
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    There needs to be a better way to group players. Like the ones that actually try and the ones afk and pulling 20-50k dps etc. That the people who actually want to play the game can be a group and get things done while the others can all sit in a group and yell at each other and rid us of thier stupidity.

  17. #17
    Here's the thing: Next week, LFR will be easier. The week after? Even easier. A month from now? Pretty damned easy. Two months from now? You won't be wiping very often.

    So, why do they need to change anything? Did they change Durumu's maze for LFR players? Did they remove all the hard parts of Lei Shen? No, they didn't. They made adjustments where necessary (as they will do with current LFR wings) and players improved.

    Don't get me wrong: If players don't end up improving, then changes are needed... but, I don't know, at least give them a chance?

    edit: I also like the thought that players with flex/normal/heroic kills should be intentionally mixed in with players that do not have those kills, just to bring up the chance of success. If those players try to AFK through it, then the system stops mixing them in.

    Now, that said, I wouldn't mind it if determination stacks didn't disappear. But, let's be honest, then you'd have groups wiping on the first boss a few times just so the rest of the bosses would go super fast.

  18. #18
    Pandaren Monk Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    I would be completely fine with this but LFR isn't aimed at me, so I'd be promoting "ruining" another demographics content. I am currently raiding heroics and I only go into LFR to just out set bonus/rotations/changes etc. This would just ensure it's an easier time for me, but at the same time I'm not sure how I feel ablout watering down LFR even more for those who it is aimed at, I don't know what that demographic needs.

    TLDR: Great for me, not sure how it affects LFR's intended audience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daetur View Post
    This is exactly how I feel. I don't care at all about having LFR being challenging or even engaging content, because it's a means to an end for me. I just want to try and fill in missing set bonuses or select gear slots for alts. The easier and faster it can be, the better. I'm already seeing the content on normal and Flex, so I really don't care about LFR "feeling" like a raid or having any challenge whatsoever. For me, it's not social enough and it's a toxic enough environment that it'll never be "fun," so I just want it to be over as quickly and painlessly as possible. For that reason, I would support this change.

    However, I know there are some people who only raid LFR, and may enjoy the feeling of progressing or working hard on a boss, and, since I am not LFR's intended audience, it is not my place to say "take that away to make things easier for me."
    Wow I hadn't been able to articulate my own thoughts on LFR until now. You guys hit it square on the head for me. The only reason I'm doing LFR currently is for a few very minor upgrades to help out my guild and then I'll be out of there
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  19. #19
    Herald of the Titans Adramalech's Avatar
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    Honestly the wipes in this second wing are pretty much down to people outright not following instructions, not mechanics being overly hard. Other than Nazgrim's health and Dark Shaman's cast frequency I wouldn't nerf anything at all in this wing. But I do have to admit, I wouldn't mind a nerf like Firefly33's list just to avoid all the time this has been taking.

    What I'd like to see though, is a huge motivator for people to stop attacking Nazgrim during defensive stance. Such as, say... the player becoming pacified for 5 seconds if they perform more than two actions on Nazgrim's defensive stance. Perhaps being unable to actually use their character would teach them to switch target. Heh, probably not.

    But then again, this will improve with each passing week. So I guess that most nerfs aren't really needed. It's slow, but people will eventually adapt. Well, most of them anyway.
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  20. #20
    Pandaren Monk Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    Here's the thing: Next week, LFR will be easier. The week after? Even easier. A month from now? Pretty damned easy. Two months from now? You won't be wiping very often.

    So, why do they need to change anything? Did they change Durumu's maze for LFR players? Did they remove all the hard parts of Lei Shen? No, they didn't. They made adjustments where necessary (as they will do with current LFR wings) and players improved.

    Don't get me wrong: If players don't end up improving, then changes are needed... but, I don't know, at least give them a chance?
    The problem is that it may not play out like that this time around. Flex wasn't in play before. Flex is playing much like 10N did prior to the combined lock. Right now you only need to moderately pay attention and do about 50% of your potential maximum DPS (very ball park, very likely to be wrong, but that is how it feels currently) to clear one Flex wing in an hour if you are an average player in full ToT normal gear.

    Previously LFR filled the role of filler gear and alt gear up. I have a feeling most people will be using Flex for that now...
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