If this is how LFR is going to be from now on, I don't see the reason in keeping it.

[MoanaLisa]

The real reason this sort of thing happens, is because LFR is instant gratification and that attracts the type of players that generally want to dps. That and there's just not enough reason to play the other classes in the game world overall.

Tanks and healers are also the subject of instant abuse. That's not really much of an incentive to start one and learn. That's always been more the problem than anything although your points have probably made it worse. Perhaps Proving Grounds will help with that; perhaps not. In any case social disincentives far outweigh any perceived incentives so the problem won't be solved without some serious changes.

[Nazrark]

Ran the second wing of LFR because a friend wanted me to. The best thing happened, I explained the mechanics of the fights to everyone. They listened and we one shot every boss but Nazgrim. Which we wiped at 3%.

It seems to be that for me at least, when I tank. The others in the group will listen to what I say.

Side note: Making jokes seems to make everyone more friendly and responsive.

[HeedmySpeed]

I'd just like to point out that at four determination you already had a built-in 40% nerf. How about instead of designing a fight that wastes everyone's time by requiring four wipes we get a fight that can be reasonably pugged with only one or two of them. Last night I was in a group that wiped four times on the shaman and then wiped on Nazgrim. By then everyone was done. One tank left and then we hung out for 20 minutes waiting for a replacement. Then the other tank left and I was pretty much done too. Expecting everyone to sit around with a random group of strangers for 30 minutes for one boss fight is just not reasonable.

Sounds like people who don't like killing bosses and just want loot.

Good thing we're catering to these people. Fucking, excellent.

[Deleted]

Why are you guys even wasting time on LFR? The gear is 7 lvls lower than that of Timeless Isle and takes way longer to get than those 535 tokens, and is usually horribly itemised (hit/crit gear for casters is useless).

[ShasVa]

Why are you guys even wasting time on LFR? The gear is 7 lvls lower than that of Timeless Isle and takes way longer to get than those 535 tokens, and is usually horribly itemised (hit/crit gear for casters is useless).

Some people, like myself, didn't or don't have time for strict normal/heroic raid times. As for Flex, I don't know.

Also, crit is useful for a few casters, such as Fire Mages.

[Deleted]

Some people, like myself, didn't or don't have time for strict normal/heroic raid times. As for Flex, I don't know.

Also, crit is useful for a few casters, such as Fire Mages.

Like I said, Timeless Isle gear is better, and you can choose when you want to farm it and for how long, and don't need a group for it either.

[Normie]

the (perfect) system where success is guarenteed without you even putting in the remotest effort?

Oh wait. That is LFR.

Seemingly, you have never been in LFR.

[Deleted]

LFR heroes are sitting at 495-505 at the moment, they'll be 520+ in a month or two and about then is where LFR will be slightly more endurable.

[rebecca191]

Like I said, Timeless Isle gear is better, and you can choose when you want to farm it and for how long, and don't need a group for it either.

Most of my Burdens have yielded spirit-less pieces, which I don't want to use as a healing priest. Also, no weapons. And only one trinket.

[Deleted]

Why are you guys even wasting time on LFR? The gear is 7 lvls lower than that of Timeless Isle and takes way longer to get than those 535 tokens, and is usually horribly itemised (hit/crit gear for casters is useless).

Timeless isle items are horribly itemised* They usually have one (or even two) gem slots less and sometimes only one secondary stat. That reduces the total amount of secondary stats by at least 20%, probably more since the item doesn't have a full double amount.

In the LFR, you can join specific parts and only do specific bosses you want to do for specific pieces of loot.

To get Timeless items, you have to farm mobs for a random chance of a random drop and when you've got that drop, you still need a large amount of coins for one single item to upgrade your gear piece which then has a random set of secondary stats.

Now, I don't do LFR and I only do Flex for one boss for one item, but if I did, I would certainly choose LFR over Timeless Isle to get geared.

[Jayjayhey]

In LFR, you can also obtain Runestones/Secrets.

[ShasVa]

I read a post on some WoW-centric site (Joystiq?), and it got me thinking about my reactions to LFR. I've gotten red-hot angry before, but the post in question made me think that I don't have to. That I could relax and chill-out, knowing full well that it truly is only a game. On a particularly long and going-nowhere run, I could instead call it quits for the night rather than for some longer period.

In any case it has given me something to think about. I just didn't like how raging I felt before with all the Nazgrim failures that happened.

[lawow74]

I dunno, I think LFR should become the scenario version of raiding. No tanks needed. No heals needed. Just 25 DPS all pounding the target. Bam, so long stupidly long queue times. Bam, so long most of the worry about fight mechanics. You want real raiding? Form a group for it. Same with random dungeons. 5-man version of scenarios. Make heroic dungeons pre-form content and all the people whining and crying for hard dungeons can have them back again. Then you have the quick 3-man queue content, the slightly longer 5-man queue content, and the longer still 25-man queue content. People who want to just jump in and make stuff blow up and see the areas and story can do it, no worries. Those who want a moderate challenge have the heroic scenario/dungeons and flex/normal raids. Those wanting a more serious challenge, expand up challenge modes and have heroic raids.

[Normie]

Edit: Nazgrim needs to NOT be nerfed. People need to learn that bosses just don't roll over and die.

The reason you are wrong here is that although it is lovely that people "learn," the people in LFR are different every day and every week, and many of them are new(er) players.

So, as a whole, LFR learns very little, very slowly, if at all. That's not a criticism (not one of my criticisms of LFR anyway), just a fact.

It becomes tedious and frustrating for people who like the LFR-like environment (an easy place to go kill some big pixel bosses and get some watered-down gear, whenever you want) and find it turned into something where you spend 3 hours earning 2 bags of gold. There is no amount of teaching your current group that will make your next group better. Once again, not a criticism, just how it is.

I don't want LFR to be a people where players have to "know how to play." That's just not ever going to work. And if LFR can't be its happy easy mode self again soon, and its popularity sags, and raiding is back to being something that 5-10% of the playing population does, then you can expect raiding tiers with 4-6 bosses, not 12, next expansion.

- - - Updated - - -

I read a post on some WoW-centric site (Joystiq?), and it got me thinking about my reactions to LFR. I've gotten red-hot angry before, but the post in question made me think that I don't have to. That I could relax and chill-out, knowing full well that it truly is only a game. On a particularly long and going-nowhere run, I could instead call it quits for the night rather than for some longer period.

In any case it has given me something to think about. I just didn't like how raging I felt before with all the Nazgrim failures that happened.

I used to rage hard in random BGs. I quit playing them for a long time because looking at what I was doing, I just needed not to be doing it. Now, when I do instanced PvP (which I haven't for almost all of this expansion), I am pretty chilled out about it.

It really doesn't do anyone any good to start calling people out until you are SURE you've identified a problem. In general, when people start selecting underperformers with recount/skada, they fuck up more than they get it right, because there are perfectly good reasons someone's damage or healing could be low, and similarly there are dumb reasons someone might be meter-padding. Et cetera. The only people that I want to get rid of are the people who are already gone (AFK) and the random tools who start raging or griefing.

[Reclaimer]

1.) Has anyone else seen an INCREASE in chance of joining an lfr ALREADY IN PROGRESS? I don't WANT THAT. I want a FRESH RUN.

CAN'T ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU WANT~~

2.) I am sitting in an LFR, an LFR that was already in progress btw, and we get to the trash for the Korkron Shaman boss. Two of the tanks leave. I am now waiting with 20+ other people for new tanks. 10 Mins pass - nothing.

I love how you counter yourself. You want a fresh run right? LEAVE. Maybe then you could have done something more productive instead of turning into a whine bag.

[Notnicebb]

Agree OP

The ones that don't agree are the lemmings that love LFR. It's trash, it should be removed from the game. YOU get over it. Take some time and find a flex raid u lazy people for god sakes.

LFR will be replaced by flex, you heard it here.

[Reclaimer]

Agree OP

The ones that don't agree are the lemmings that love LFR. It's trash, it should be removed from the game. YOU get over it. Take some time and find a flex raid u lazy people for god sakes.

LFR will be replaced by flex, you heard it here.

Nope never.

[Brubear]

It's funny that those who don't agree are the lemmings.

I just did SoO LFR first wing for the first time. We one shot every boss and the only one we even came close to wiping on was Sha of Pride because the other guy who was tanking with me didn't quite understand how the prisons worked so some folks died their and others had a hard time avoiding stuff on the ground. We still beat him with around 16/25 people up, though.

So in other words, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal and, just as has always been the case with LFR, sometimes you get a fresh run other times a run already in progress. Sometimes you get an awesome group other times you get a bunch of idiots. If you don't like it, don't que for it and stick with flex/normal.

[Ronduwil]

Sounds like people who don't like killing bosses and just want loot.

Good thing we're catering to these people. Fucking, excellent.

Nope... sounds like people who like killing bosses but don't want to spend 3 freaking hours repeatedly attempting the same boss with people switching in and out after each wipe, causing you to spend another 5-10 minutes re-explaining the same fight yet again. That's why this isn't tenable in LFR. In an organized raid group I go in with the same people week in and week out. We wipe 3-4 times and learn a little more each wipe. The first week we try the boss more times than I can count but eventually take it down. The second week there's one more two wipes where we re-learn what we forgot from the previous week, and after that the boss is pretty much "on farm" and we one-shot it. I'm sorry, but that's not an option with 24 strangers.

Here's why the mechanics can't be so complex in LFR: Getting 24 strangers to stop DPS during defensive stance AND kill the banner ASAP AND interrupt the shamans AND kill the healing totems followed by shamans AND stun the Ironblades so they don't whirlwind through the raid AND stay out of the heroic shockwave is pretty close to impossible.

That having been said, they seem to have nerfed the fight already. Four stacks of determination without seeing a single axe from ravage tonight. The first wipe we had issues with people not interrupting shamans and killing totems so the boss kept getting healed and he eventually enraged. After that the new limiting factor was keeping people focused on the adds when the boss is close to death. Some idiot kept calling for everyone to burn the boss right at the moment where he spawns a double wave of adds. That bonehead was only doing 40k dps to boot. Once we kicked him we finally took Nazgrim down.

- - - Updated - - -

Why are you guys even wasting time on LFR? The gear is 7 lvls lower than that of Timeless Isle and takes way longer to get than those 535 tokens, and is usually horribly itemised (hit/crit gear for casters is useless).

Have you done LFR? SoO LFR gear is 528. Timeless Isle gear is 496. Last time I checked 528 - 496 = 32, not -7.

- - - Updated - - -

I just did SoO LFR first wing for the first time. We one shot every boss and the only one we even came close to wiping on was Sha of Pride because the other guy who was tanking with me didn't quite understand how the prisons worked so some folks died their and others had a hard time avoiding stuff on the ground. We still beat him with around 16/25 people up, though.

Then count your blessings. They nerfed it massively this week. Also, second wing is where it really gets problematic. I did all of the first wing tonight with only one wipe and I did three of the four second wing bosses in two separate runs. I had to leave the first group because there was too much trolling and fail tanking (to the point where I thought the tank was trolling) going on.

So in other words, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal and, just as has always been the case with LFR, sometimes you get a fresh run other times a run already in progress. Sometimes you get an awesome group other times you get a bunch of idiots. If you don't like it, don't que for it and stick with flex/normal.

Sadly the crucial factor here is the tank. I hate that they automatically give leadership to the tanks every time. If one of the tanks knows what they're doing it's a success. Otherwise it's very chancy at best.

[M00]

Normal/heroic raiders have been complaining since LFR's introduction that they felt forced to do it to be as competetive as possible in their main runs.

Blizzard has finally successfully removed the need for these people to do LFR with a mixture of introducing flex and making the LFR ilvl so low that it just isn't worth it.

Side effect is that these people were actually the ones holding LFR groups together.