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Time spent is pretty unimportant imo, attempts are what matter.
I.E a guild spent 30 Days on Illidan, a total of 2500 attempts
Guild 2 spent 40 days on Illidan, a total of 1000 attempts
To be that says guild 2 is far better than guild 1. (These numbers are all bs btw but you get the idea)
So if you had a list of pulls on a boss then you could compare them more fairly, still it wouldn't be 100% accurate.
To say that the last 3 bosses in SoO are also the last three in terms of difficulty (in increasing order) in the whole of WoW is just ridiculous. Perhaps players have become better and so on, but to provide a simple example: remember that Ragnaros took 11 days for Paragon to down (who also was a better guild back then than they are now!) compared to just under 6 for Lei Shen. You don't just become 50% "better" at this game in a few years.
Besides, when someone wins a competition, no matter how artificial it is, he or she definitely wants to believe that HIS pedestal is the greatest one of them all. So that hyperbole was all but unexpected.
14/14H SoO <Divinity>
Garrosh's difficulty is debatable. Is he the hardest boss ever done so far? For sure.
Is he that high of a climb compared to previous bosses as Lich King/ Ragnaros were before him? I don't think so.
How do you come to compare paragon 25 man to paragon 10 man? I would it rather see the opposite way, as a core of 10 players is likely to be better as 25 man with a probably even greater pool of players in demand.
But its also is hard to compare the difficulties of 10 and 25 man, as they are different in whats actually hard for the raid, which makes it even more difficult to say if a guild has gotten better or worse.
Also like said above and before, days from first attempt to kill don't matter and even attempts are only of limited indication as player and class strength growd more and more over the time. We currently have much more cds allowing to beat dmg checks in a short time window, spine of deathwing would have been way easier with skull banners and stormlash.
Also learning speed increases dramatically as we get more mechnanics to experience from content to content. If you would upgrade Firelands raggi hc to nowaday it would be beaten way faster as back then, simply because the mechanics are kinda easy compared to some nowadays and the sheer strength of the classes has improved greatly.
If a boss was not tuned totally horrible the current endboss is likely to be/emphasized as the hardest as long as it is a mechanic based boss, madness and sha of fear are not memorized as one of the hardest bosses simply because they have limited mechanics, were somewhat long fights with sometimes considerable checks, which are a thing of gear and hardcore guilds are undergeared 90% of the time during the world first race.
And depending on rooster stability and teamplay a 50% increase in skill or whatever is not unlikely, a player can only be as good as the game challenges go and those challenges become more complex and difficult from expansion to expansion.
I am no hardcore or world first race player but especially because of this i have experienced how the strength of a group or a player can change. My guild spend almost three times the time on sha of fear heroic as it spend on Lei Shen heroic and Lei shen was by far not the boss with the most tries within ToT for us. Part was due to getting better players in 1 or 2 spots, part was a vastly better setup and also just better teamplay and knowledge on what the other can manage and with this also a great improve in personal skill in terms of the own class and in terms of handling boss mechanics.
Humans love to hate. They neither have to think nor to understand to hate something or someone and still they find a cause and solution for their problems.
People just don't know what hard means :
Grinding gear ain't hard. Wiping on bugged or well overtuned bosses ain't hard (which pretty much sums up all bosses untill Wrath of the Lich King).
A hard boss: you have the required skill and gear for, but you still can't kill it, or you are so close to the kill yet so far away at the same time.
The hardest boss of all time is heroic ragnaros, and heroic lei shen being close after it, probably with garrosh being slightly behind lei shen.
If HC ragnaros had limited attempts, it would have taken guilds at least 10 weeks to kill it. Which would be more than any other boss.
In fact people with the skill of play back in vanilla/tbc/wrath would have never been able to kill heroic ragnaros.
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Kelthuzzad wasn't that difficult, at least not that difficult to even belong in the top 3.
Mu'ru was artificially scaled so you couldn't kill it mathematically.
Last edited by Hikashuri; 2013-10-01 at 03:43 PM.
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3 guilds killed M'uru version 1.0 during the first week of the gate being opened. Blizzard realized how much of a ballbuster it was and removed the spell pushback from Negative Energy.
Even then, you still basically had to have 20+ LWers in your raid for seamless drum rotations across at least 4 groups, on top of perfect execution.
M'uru 1.1 still destroyed more guilds than any other boss in the history of WoW (proud to say we first-killed Entropious w/ 5 people alive 3 weeks before the massive nerf).
"There are two types of guys in this world. Guys who sniff their fingers after scratching their balls, and dirty fucking liars." -StylesClashv3
"Elo Hell is where the Ego is greater than the Elo." -Bystekhilcar
This is almost 8 months after ICC release, no other guild did this pre 4.0.
Last edited by Bigbazz; 2013-10-01 at 05:25 PM.
I7 2600k @4.5ghz : 16GB DDR3 : GTX670 : Firestudio : Naga : G27
One thing people are forgetting about Vanilla/early BC bosses is that they were mechanically simpler than bosses nowadays - bosses nowadays are tailored for people with boss mods/trackers, while Vanilla bosses weren't.
The difficulty from earlier bosses were solely numbers-related, not as much as mechanics-related as it is today.
I'm pretty sure Paragons has more mechanics than all of Molten Core combined.
I'm just going to post what I put in the World first thread.
I think with the current amount of personal mitigation and raid wide cd's available things have gotten easier for the "Player"; and the bosses have been tuned harder both mechanically and numbers wise to compensate. I think that Lich King would have been significantly easier with Life grips and warlock portals, along with active mitigation, spirit shell and whatever else.
but realistically, LK was insanely hard but people overestimate its difficulty and forget about limited attempts. It was still vastly less attempts for top guilds than a lot of other 'hardest of all time' type fights. Also, I haven't pulled Garrosh, I make no judgement on it, but...every time a new 'hard' boss comes out the top guilds at the time proclaim it to be the hardest ever. I kind of take that with a grain of salt. Lich King was the 'hardest ever' (muru was harder). Ragnaros was the hardest ever (I actually think it was true at the time), Lei Shen was the hardest ever (again, disagree), etc. Then we get 3 'hardest ever' bosses in a single tier. We'll see. I think this topic tends to get more accurate with history bearing it out than with hyperbole and assumptions right at the end of the race. It's ALWAYS the hardest boss of all time when one guild has killed it.
Last edited by theyanger; 2013-10-01 at 06:17 PM.