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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    People are quit to write-off / discount M'uru as a simple "overtuned" and "easy as shit mechanics" fight.

    Odds are they simply weren't there for 1.0 and 1.1 progression.

    Still one of the most glorious fights to this day, requiring perfect execution and finding every last crumb of DPS to get through. Players that only killed it after the sweeping HP nerfs (version 1.2) were cheated out of a truly demanding fight (rare for Vanilla / BC era) as the nerf trivialized the fight (and really, the entire instance).

    They didn't call it the Guild Destroyer for nothing...probably caused the break up of more raiding guilds than any other boss to date.
    Exactly! Hard doesn’t mean which boss has the most creative mechanics. I’m just going to put it out there that mechanics are gimmicky; talented players figure them out really quickly and overcome them. That’s what sets the leading guilds apart from the average. Tuning is the real difference: it can make even the simplest fight test the best of players.

    M’uru wasn’t even the most creative boss in Sunwell in terms of mechanics, but he single handidly destroyed more progression guilds than any other boss in WoW history. Why? Because the tuning was absolutely brutal and left no room for mistakes, lag or even indecision.

    One of the guilds which got US top 10 kills on Kalecgos and Brutallis and US top 20 on Felmyst took almost two months to kill M’uru.

    Anyone who scoffs at how hard M’uru actually was is either from the original 5 ultra-elite guilds who downed the 1.0 version, from Drow, who had that amazing AoE strat that everyone else tried but couldn’t replicate, or simply didn’t raid Sunwell pre-3.0. Everyone else struggled with him, and most struggled for weeks and weeks.
    Last edited by spoon77; 2013-10-10 at 02:22 AM.

  2. #282
    Kil'Jaeden was harder than M'uru before KJ aggro got hotfixed and more likely to cause trouble on farm.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    Kil'Jaeden was harder than M'uru before KJ aggro got hotfixed and more likely to cause trouble on farm.
    Oh really?

    M'uru took us over 300 wipes.

    We got KJ in about 40 pulls.

    Similar experiences shared with other top 100 guilds at the time.

    "There are two types of guys in this world. Guys who sniff their fingers after scratching their balls, and dirty fucking liars." -StylesClashv3
    "Elo Hell is where the Ego is greater than the Elo." -Bystekhilcar

  4. #284
    People overrate the word difficult. They think fights that take a long time all belong in that category. Some fights just require a gear check. Hard is Yogg 0 where even people with gear couldn't get it down. It had many different ridiculous abilities. Skill level has increased too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Plarock View Post
    Pacteh is clearly delusional. Heroic Garrosh took somewhere around 270 attempts for them to kill, I think Blood Legion said it was similar. Lei Shen took well into the 500's for the first kills, and Ragnaros was right about the same. Garrosh cannot be compared to Raggnaros OR Lich King, because Garrosh simply isn't that mechanically complicated of a boss. You skip an entire intermission on heroic, and Enrage isn't even remotely close to an issue (kills range in the 15 minute timeframe, with a boss enrage of 18 minutes).

    You let me know how a boss that took roughly half the attempts of Heroic Ragnaros, Heroic Lich King, or Heroic Lei Shen is a "harder" boss than those before it.

    Pacteh likes to talk a lot of smack, so of course the one time they get a final boss overall first (without Paragon beating them to it) he is going to act like it's the hardest thing ever and they did nothing short of a miracle to kill it. Read the ManaFlask article, Pacteh talks about how amazing Garrosh was and how it's the number 1 fight of all time, and the other guildies didn't rank it anywhere near as high as he did.

    It's also worth noting that they wiped for HOURS on Blackfuse the night before and same day as their repeat Heroic Garrosh kill. They 2 shot Heroic Garrosh, not counting the ninja pull insta-wipe they did shortly after the Thrall RP. It would have been a one shot had the rogue they had kiting an Iron Star not been picked for Malice. Blackfuse is a mechanically harder boss than Garrosh. Paragons is more of a gear check and a "figure out the right kill order" boss, and Garrosh was a gear check. An end boss deserves to be more than just a "have enough gear to skip an entire portion of the fight", and a heroic-only phase should have more than 2 easily controllable mechanics.

    More pulls went into Blackfuse and Paragons than Garrosh. Think about that.
    I agree with everything you just said.

  5. #285
    Everybody notes that player skill has increased yet I do not believe that at all. I believe that playing your class with more efficiency has simply become easier, I know for a fact that I haven't drastically changed my playing style since BC, which leads me to believe that most people that have played since vanilla haven;t changed their playing styles tremendously either. This leads into my thinking of skill remaining the same, the raids have become easier simply because each class has so many tools now. The mechanics are more complex to make up for the abilities given to each class with each expansion. The difficulty is not increasing, vanilla was simply harder because gear hurdle was there to float bad players, without the gear you didn't have enough decent players to complete a encounter. You also had to coordinate many more people, which wasn't easy at all (early days seem comparable to a bad LFR).

  6. #286
    over 600 pulls on 10 H Garrosh is no laughing matter.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by xiic View Post
    over 600 pulls on 10 H Garrosh is no laughing matter.
    Just further proves that 10 and 25 equal balancing will never exist, and people need to really start treating them as two separate entities.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    Oh really?

    M'uru took us over 300 wipes.

    We got KJ in about 40 pulls.

    Similar experiences shared with other top 100 guilds at the time.
    Name of your guild? Sounds like a fraud.
    http://web.archive.org/web/200809130...utsu.com/world
    Sunwell Plateau
    3.47%
    Kalecgos
    3.40%
    Brutallus
    2.25%
    Felmyst
    1.54%
    Eredar Twins
    1.20%
    M'uru
    0.50%
    Kil'jaeden
    0.21%

    Surely more than 50% of the guild that wiped (and than killed) 300 times on muru would have invested the time for 40 KJ pulls in a few months.
    Last edited by Dangg; 2013-10-11 at 12:45 AM.

  9. #289
    One thing to take into account with those numbers are repeat M'uru kills. For example, the only other guild on our server that killed M'uru didn't kill KJ -- they had problems with repeat kills in the subsequent weeks after the first kill, killing him only two further times. People quit and that guild stopped progression until the massive nerfs in 3.0. In a month they probably only spent three or four nights on KJ in total.

    That was why he was such a guild killer -- aside from being ultra-tightly tuned the fight was incredibly monotonous, so people burned out on him.

  10. #290
    No Garrosh isn't the hardest at all. I have friends in higher up guilds and they are currently on him or have killed him and say that Blackfuse and Klaxxi are much more difficult than Garrosh. They almost compare Garrosh to Ra-den and blackfuse to Lei-shen.

    And KJ was miles easier than Muru... My guild took 203 wipes on Muru and around 50 on KJ. Since you seem to want credentials, I am/was Brunnor/Sendaii of Crimson on Greymane - Main tank at the time as well as Guild leader and raid leader.
    Narye/Sofex - Zul'jin US PvE - 0/17M T17- 9 hr/wk - Exiled Legion

  11. #291
    I'm gonna go with top 5 Heroic bosses for difficulty:

    Lich King
    Ragnaros (FL)
    Yogg 0
    Algalon
    Spine (The most difficult part of Spine was forcing yourself to logon for another go at picking the dragons scabs)

  12. #292
    Bloodsail Admiral Sageofthe10paths's Avatar
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    I found Normal garrsh as challenging as normal Ragnaros. Sunwell was insanely hard... Maybe too hard. I'd like it at the end of ever xpac we got a mega hard raid with one boss kinda like Halion where it's just one boss and a tease for the new xpac.

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