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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Miuku View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Reyzzz View Post
    player skill have increased tremendously
    In terms of raiding? Absolutely it has. Time was, Patchwerk was considered a difficult and interesting boss fight. Now his name is invoked by elitists (and even the Blizzard developers themselves) to insult encounters that are considered to be... under-designed, to put it nicely.
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaethon View Post
    People aren't saying they were easy, they are saying recent bosses, e.g. Lich King, Ragnaros were just harder.
    And that is not true either... You can read the bosses mechanics off a website and decide "well Lich King had more phases and more abilities so he is harder" but unless you did both when they were current then you really can't judge. As someone who has raided since Vanilla I can tell you that Heroic Lei Shen, Heroic Lich King, etc were no more difficult to me than C'thun or Four horsemen.. not to say any of them were not difficult, they were all extremely challenging. You have to understand what it was like at the time to truly understand the difficulty.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemah View Post
    #10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
    #16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
    #16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
    See this is why I never liked this frequently copy-pasted list.

    Guilds did Conclave very early in heroics (my guild personally did it THIRD, Paragon did it SECOND) and then saved Ala'kir heroic as the final 13th boss. Paragon also went and did Nef heroic in between killing Ascendant Council and Chogall. Atramedes was also done as a much earlier heroic in the heroic list than Nefarian.

    Would be nice if the person who made the list actually knew something about the encounters and the progression.

  4. #44
    yes, people HAVE gotten better at the game in general.
    Last edited by maldias; 2013-09-28 at 10:42 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    I've heard it from the best raiders in the world that NO bosses compare to Heroic Lich King and Heroic Ragnaros. That list is irrelevant when the raiders who were in the world top 10 for most if not all of the bosses say this.
    I'm far from a heroic raider but I will tell you this. The greatest achievement in my ("our" more like it) lil raiding life is a 25 men Ragnaros win 2 week before DS. I don't care that it was nerfed or what not, that thing was a mountain and we did it. That kill alone was rarity on my server regardless of any tuning and nerfs they did. Rag 25 is the hardest boss I've ever beaten while content was relevant.

    We couldn't make Arthas 25 though... we did every single Wrath raid on 25 (except ulduar) and Arthas just messed us up. It was the valkyrs I tell ya. But we did get him on 10 man easy.

    After that I think our proudest moment is an Ahead of the Curve achievement on Lei Shen. The thunder king took a while to die.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Natureseer View Post
    And that is not true either... You can read the bosses mechanics off a website and decide "well Lich King had more phases and more abilities so he is harder" but unless you did both when they were current then you really can't judge. As someone who has raided since Vanilla I can tell you that Heroic Lei Shen, Heroic Lich King, etc were no more difficult to me than C'thun or Four horsemen.. not to say any of them were not difficult, they were all extremely challenging. You have to understand what it was like at the time to truly understand the difficulty.
    I think there's a difference between things that are challenging because of mechanics and things that are challenging because of poor game design. Four horsemen, for example, was difficult primarily because of the raid comp and gear requirement (eight Warrior tanks with set bonus) because for some idiotic reason Taunt was on the spell hit table. Oh, and it had a five yard range, because bosses are hard of hearing and can't understand your witty banter from outside of melee range.
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemah View Post
    Until it takes longer than the bosses on this list, I'd doubt it.

    http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/163...rld_first_list

    It's still VERY early yet. A further breakdown from this link:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2794651519

    #1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
    -snip-
    #29 tied M'uru. 4 days from the opening of the second Sunwell gate. 4th May 2008
    Isn't this list a bit outdated? I thought Heroic Rag was more than 4 days since the kill prior along with Lei Shen. Was going to say Madness, but I think it was killed a day or two after Spine finally got down.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemah View Post
    lol exactly.

    It's not an irrelevant list. Even gated, those bosses have still been "up" much longer than the short period H-Garrosh has been out.
    Because taking time to farm resist gear and what not should nto matter? As others have said this list is really terrible if your just goign by days.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    Firelands Ragnaros. Not MC.

    Ragnaros HC was a beast. I mean, SoO has been out for what, a few weeks? almost 3 weeks? People think Garrosh is the hardest boss ever? What?
    Uh, read it again, brosef. Very clearly it states the a. date (2006), and b. the boss it was killed after (Majordomo EXECUTUS).

    Last time I checked, we weren't doing heroic Firelands in 2006 and Majordomo Executus was a fire naga and not a crazy ass scorpion-changing night elf druid.

    As for the list, it's not a good judgement to decide on difficulty based on timeframe, but rather on pull count. Many of those bosses may have taken longer amounts of days or weeks to kill, but also many of those took much longer to get back to after a wipe.

    As an example, you have C'thun on that list. Not counting the one hour respawn timer on trash going to C'thun, your average runback for a 40-man raid to C'thun's room, complete with rebuffs, took about eight minutes. Now, also factoring in the fact that C'thun had a MAJOR bug that had him stuck at 1 hit point, factor in that. Per attempt, that bug being considered, you probably spent about 10 minutes on a pull. So, in total, each pull was taking a grand total of 18 minutes. In a five hour raid night (which very few guilds did back then), you would average 16 pulls of C'thun.

    As opposed to heroic Ragnaros, which had, if I recall correctly, a total pull count on it's first kill of well over 500 attempts. The run back after a wipe to Ragnaros, and to fully rebuff, took about 3 minutes. The average attempt duration, factoring in wiping in the final phase, would average out to 8 minutes. During the course of a five hour raid day, that would equal 27 attempts on the boss.

    Sadly, there is not accurate data on pull counts on most encounters from days past. However, that being said, based on averages, it's easy to determine that many of those bosses took significantly fewer pulls to kill than bosses in the post-heroic modes era of raiding. Sorry, but your list is indeed very much flawed. However, that being said, in a way so was the OP's question.

    If Garrosh takes on a higher pull count than it's previously determined "most difficult encounters" (which hardcore raiders would tell you weren't any fight in vanilla or BC, but were heroic Lei Shin, Ragnaros, and Lich King, likely in that order), then it will most likely go down as the new "most difficult encounter". However, it's still a little bit early to make that determination, as it's only week 2 of heroic modes. If it goes two more weeks without being downed, I'd say that it will likely surpass the previous three on the list at that time.

  10. #50
    should go by # of attempt for the first kill.

    while not a perfect measurement, it is better then # of days
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  11. #51
    The bosses on live are easier now then before, as you got journal with all abilities lined up, you also get practice the bosses on ptr and computers and inet is better so a lot more % of the pop got stable connections. All the fights are gear checks, not skill checks, tactics are done within 1 day and you gotta wait til you get those extra pieces to push that little extra dmg you need.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemah View Post
    Until it takes longer than the bosses on this list, I'd doubt it.

    http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/163...rld_first_list

    It's still VERY early yet. A further breakdown from this link:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2794651519

    #1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
    #2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
    #3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
    #3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
    #5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
    #6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
    #7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
    #8 Al'ar <Phoenix God> - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
    #9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
    #10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
    #11 Kael'thas Sunstrider <Lord of the Blood Elves> - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
    #12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
    #13 Lady Vashj <Coilfang Matron> - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
    #14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
    #15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
    #16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
    #16 tied Hydross the Unstable <Duke of Currents> - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
    #16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
    #16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
    #20 tied Archimonde <The Defiler> - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
    #20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006
    #22 tied Mimiron Firefighter 25 - 8 days from Ensidia's first pull. May 1st 2009
    #22 tied Sapphiron - 8 days from Four Horsemen dying. 2nd September 2006
    #22 tied Gruul the Dragonkiller - 8 days from Maulgar's death. 3rd February 2007
    #25 Reliquary of Lost Souls - 6 days from Gurtogg's death. 2nd June 2007
    #26 tied Kel'Thuzad - 5 days from Sapphiron's death. 7th September 2006
    #26 tied Kil'jaeden <The Deceiver> - 5 days from the opening of the third Sunwell gate. 25th May 2008
    #26 tied Sinestra - 5 days from Heroic Cho'gall's death. January 20th 2011.
    #29 tied Heroic Anub'arak 25 - 4 days from Heroic Twin Val'kyr's death. September 6th 2009.
    #29 tied M'uru. 4 days from the opening of the second Sunwell gate. 4th May 2008
    I believe ragnaros should be on this list twiice!

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    Firelands Ragnaros. Not MC.

    Ragnaros HC was a beast. I mean, SoO has been out for what, a few weeks? almost 3 weeks? People think Garrosh is the hardest boss ever? What?
    Fireland Rag didn't take 2 and half month to kill so the list is referring to MC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruargh
    I'm baffled that something this simple can be so hard for some people... I guess we can't blame blizzard for dumbing down the game any longer, because apparently it very much needed :

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedlance View Post
    The bosses on live are easier now then before, as you got journal with all abilities lined up, you also get practice the bosses on ptr and computers and inet is better so a lot more % of the pop got stable connections. All the fights are gear checks, not skill checks, tactics are done within 1 day and you gotta wait til you get those extra pieces to push that little extra dmg you need.
    Molten Core was totally a skill check.

  15. #55
    Have a pretty good feeling that Garrosh will be up there in the heavens of Lei Shen, Ragnaros, Yogg0 for endbosses. Just as Blackfuse is up there with Firefighter.

  16. #56
    This thread has to have been the fastest de-rail ever.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedlance View Post
    The bosses on live are easier now then before, as you got journal with all abilities lined up, you also get practice the bosses on ptr and computers and inet is better so a lot more % of the pop got stable connections. All the fights are gear checks, not skill checks, tactics are done within 1 day and you gotta wait til you get those extra pieces to push that little extra dmg you need.

    Practicing on PTR is irrelevant to determining that older bosses were harder, cause all raids with the exception of BWL and AQ have been on the PTR (maybe MC as well, but i think it were in the open beta)

    Naxxramas, a raid which is considered by some, the hardest and most epic raid ever, were open for testing 24/7, compared to raids we have these days where the bosses are testable for an hour now and then, and mostly in odd hours for Europeans at least.

    and to be in a top guild, you had to have a really good PC, or else you were of no use during progress if your PC froze in the middle of tries.

    The list that are being put out here is just trash, bugged bosses and resistance gear checks being on top says nothing about their difficulty, Four horsemen were really hard, but mostly due to needing so many tanks with 4p t3. (we used one feral druid on them, which was risky, but worked) And having a slightly advanced rotation for the tanks and healers,
    For dpsers it was a pretty much brainless fight, dps one horseman till you got high stacks, run out, wait until it's your groups turn to run to the next horseman, repeat.
    Recruiting healers during naxx farm was a pain, had to teach them the 4H rotation, making new healers never getting to kill them unless there were no other alternative.

    And and time between tries have been reduced A LOT, back in vanilla depending on what boss, it could take a very long time, you started out with just basic tries to figure out strategies, and when you found out that you got the correct strategy, and were getting ready for some serious kill tries you went the world around collecting world buffs ect, if you found them neccesary for beating the boss, which they were for many of the harder vanilla bosses.
    If
    I played a warlock, during farm raids in naxx, i had to bring 80+ soul shards to the raid, 2-3 warlocks summoning an entire raid back to naxx after getting buffs
    Then Healthstones for an entire raid, 2-3 warlocks each having different amount of talents into improved Healthstone so that you could give out more than one per raid member :-) Now that is irrelevant to the matter at hand, but nostalgia.

    As for your skill checks vs gear checks, these top players are so insanely good that if they gonna make encounters that really give the best players in the world problems to handle skill wise, there will be no chance in hell that mediocre Heroic raiders can kill those bosses. and thats not something blizzard want to, and they never have, not even on the old bosses, with the exception of probably Four Horsemen, there have never been a boss that challenged the best of the best in any other way than gear or bugs.

  18. #58
    H LK, H Rag and H Lei Shen are the epitome of hard boss in modern raiding. They are far harder than those old bosses. We still don't know about H Garrosh though.

  19. #59
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    More difficult than H Rag, H LK or H Lei Shen? We'll see.
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  20. #60
    I made that list and that's an old version. It's been improved and updated here http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ed-the-longest

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