Am I wrong or was Ouro significantly easier than C'thun (specially cause bugged/unkillable) and the only reason he is on top of that list is cause guilds who actually got to C'thun were focusing 100% (world first and all) on that and skipped him until C'thun was dead?
Note: I'm not saying that the insane amount of time WF guilds put in is a GOOD thing. I mean they love it so power to them but of course normal players shouldn't try to emulate that. Not if they value sleeping, eating and shitting :P
When I say modern guilds are far better, that's not to disparage the old raiding guilds. Today's HM raiders have a knowledge base and personal experience of up to 8 years to draw from. That changes everything, and Blizzard has increased the challenge of the mechanics and enrages to compensate.
Last edited by Zylan; 2013-09-30 at 07:55 AM.
Just lady vashj, that you and other "Bad boy" raiders call simple passing of the core, has the same mechanics as any other modern hc boss + the dps to make the kill was as tight as it is today, so ppl had to be on their top dps output to manage it before outgearing it. Spreading around, fast dispells, moving away from melee fast, ranged kite tanking mobs, managing the adds that constantly spawn, good phase shifts, moving the boss around away from aoe that spawns, pulling out top dps to manage the soft enrage and passing the core in the end etc.. So if you are still claming that todays fights have x times more mechanics then old one, then you are just plain lost, since in my book moving away from x effect is the same no matter if its a big black pool or a green acid pool or a fire pool.
I'm in a heroic raiding guild now and I am extremely skilled today (if I may say so myself) and the fights are incredibly harder now. The hardest part for me before heroic raids was finding raiders that weren't recently lobotomized. Even the best raiding groups had at least 10 clueless people, but did that matter? No, because if they could spam Shadowbolt or Sunder Armor, they still performed at basically 95% of what their maximum potential was.
Tanking was hard? No, it wasn't. It required you to roll a warrior (shame on you if you tanked with a different class btw) and tab target while spamming sunder, or in extreme cases, assign different tanks for different mobs. Sure, people would outaggro since the threat system was messed up until late TBC, but the tanking wasn't HARD since it was literally one ability alone that gave you enough threat to keep aggro. It was faulty design.
Nope, the hard part about 40man raiding was the neverending gear farming and getting 39 other people that actually didn't derp up completely.
On-topic: I really think the OP should change the post and only include later fights were amount of pulls is taken into account.
Paragon killed Siegecrafter exactly a day after Thok and they said they had 100 pulls in between (190 in total, but 90 of those were before the Thok kill, if I remember right). That's 100 pulls/day if they keep the same pace on othe bosses, which they probably do.
How many pulls/hour did you get back then? How many minutes did it take just running back and getting everyone buffed again or how often did someone important dc or had to go to dinner so you had to find a replacement?
Surely you do understand that raidbosses today are harder. I don't think you're trying to convince us, I honestly think you're trying to convince yourself. Deep down, you know that raids today are harder, but for some reason, you're not in a hotshot heroic guild today like you really want to. That's why you convince yourself of Vanilla being harder so you don't have to be let down by yourself for "not being one of the best". But trust me, bosses are harder today and you're not one of the greatest raiders ever if you managed to down Kel'thuzad unless you've downed at least some of the harder bosses nowadays pre-nerf.
Oh, shut up.
I loved Vanilla/TBC because you could be a top guild and raid 2-3 nights a week for 4 hours. Now it's not going to happen.
Game has also evolved. Mods have made the encounters harder and harder, not increasing player skill. Most of the players from vanilla have already quit, you must see that. Nothing in the game can hold a candle to Naxx 40/Uld. Nothing. In you I see someone who never raided seriously in Vanilla/TBC.Surely you do understand that raidbosses today are harder. I don't think you're trying to convince us, I honestly think you're trying to convince yourself. Deep down, you know that raids today are harder, but for some reason, you're not in a hotshot heroic guild today like you really want to. That's why you convince yourself of Vanilla being harder so you don't have to be let down by yourself for "not being one of the best". But trust me, bosses are harder today and you're not one of the greatest raiders ever if you managed to down Kel'thuzad unless you've downed at least some of the harder bosses nowadays pre-nerf.
Good day sir.
Last edited by iggie; 2013-09-30 at 08:16 AM.
Global guild rankings: http://www.loyogou.com/game/wow/ladd...ldLadders.html
Tuned close to impossible is good. Maximizing should be a major part of hc raiding. Just mastering the mechanics is normal mode.Heroic Lich King was deliberately overtuned so that he was either impossible or close to impossible to kill before the first 5% buff. Artificial difficulty.
Impossible/requires insane class stacking is not cool however.
please never post in such a thread again with this useless dribbling nonsense as everything you have said is ridiculous.
Of that old old list not counting bugged bosses, Cthun, despawning KT,I would say yogg 0 and maybe The Four Horsemen? I don't remeber that ever being bugged as much as the others.
M'uru was never even killed back in BC before the nerf wasn't it? A lot of bosses back in BC had to be nerfed Vashj MCing all the tank's D:
Last edited by furydeath; 2013-09-30 at 08:34 AM.
"We don't need Blizz to nerf the content. We need it to be less terrible." - Totalbiscuit
Also that list everyone keeps copy pasting was updated http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ed-the-longest
Last edited by Nitros14; 2013-09-30 at 08:38 AM.
Some of the entries in the list are kind of irrelevant. Yogg-0 was impossible in the gear without stacking DoT classes. Stars were simply the first to get that many of them in one place. Similar for the others. Four Horsemen required something like 8 fully geared tanks. You either had to gear up more (and in Vanilla that took a long time), decimate lower guilds for their tanks (or at least borrow them), or just not do the encounter. Many of the vanilla ones took that time because that's how long it took to get the correct amount of resistance gear.
Class stacking to beat the encounter early is one thing. Class stacking to beat them *at all* is another.
We're seeing more encounters beaten as early as they are through better tuning, and through more guilds having the time and resources to pull 5 alt raids a week in order to gear the mains faster. The so-called "dumbification" of WoW really helps with that.
I don't see any of them as irrelevant because it's not trying to measure difficulty, just how long they took to die.
Yogg-Saron gets points for 'most brutally overtuned mostly unbugged encounter at release' though. That's a lot of weeks of gear.
We don't have any data on the number of pulls/wipes for those old bosses. Some of them (number one on the list for one, IIRC) died in just a few attempts, they were gated or after bugs. They may have required more effort to down, but we just have no way of knowing anymore.
It's been since wrath that a boss took this much pure time, I think. But, who can tell how many attempts were made before success? That makes a big difference. A boss nobody bothered to fight or couldn't get to might take years to drop, but die on the first pull. Time isn't really a good indicator of anything except world-first. I mean, if method drops the boss tomorrow but has (lets just say arbitrarily) 500 pulls, but then "Random EU Guild" kills him next week with only 80, then we're talking two different things, right?
So, you can't go by time. If the first boss in a raid was the hardest in that raid, he'd _still_ drop faster than every boss after him, even if every boss after him was a oneshot that could be solo'd by a disc priest.
Unfortunately, we can't really know for sure. I know that I knew a lot of guilds wiping on KT25, a lot of guilds wiping on LK25H. I haven't fought Gary, but I personally think LK25H is the hardest thing I've ever done on WoW by far. That's just anecdotal.
I find it interesting that it's taking so long for Gary to drop, but there's now way of knowing if he's the hardest based only on time, unfortunately. I just noticed wowprog is tracking pulls as well as time, so in the future we'll have a new measure to judge difficulty by. For now, there's no way to be sure about old encounters, and probably never will be.
Ouro only tops that list because he was intentionally skipped as most guilds at the time went from twins straight to C'thun. Soon as C'thun is downed after being bugfixed (tentacles in the stomach and trouble with the lazer beam) Ouro is downed the next day.
Vashj and Kael were bugged, as was Chrommagus.
4 Horseman, despite still to this day holding the record for longest undefeated encounter with no bugfix/hotfix/nerf/alteration of any kind before being defeated wasn't a hard fight. It was a gear check, since tanks needed the set bonus so Taunt wouldn't miss due to it being a spell. Some of the other bosses are again simply gear checks, or rather a resistance check, stacking buffs and resistance gear. The fights themselves had very little in the way of mechanics, unlike bosses of today.
Take a look at the vanilla bosses on that list. Some of those bosses have only 3 or 4 abilities/mechanics over the course of the entire fight. Compare that to Lich King, Yogg'saron, FL Ragnaros, Lei Shen who have more than 3 abilities just in the first phase alone.
If you want to use that list do it the right way, that is the list of how long it took to defeat bosses, not a test of how hard they were. Lothoab or Heigan are harder than Sapphiron, who is primarily a resistance check.
My name is Cernunnos, I will love you like no other, I have died a thousand deaths, each time I died I thought of you.
3 days later paragons kills it with 4 warlocks
3 days after that premonition kills it with 3 warlocks
muru required 5 shamans on its first kill,exodus world2nd used 4 .
heroic spine required 7 mages on its first kill, stars used 6 world 2nd, blood legion used 8 world 3rd .
hell it was required for early kills to have 2 death knights for 25man H lei shen, i guess that's not a real kill either since it required them in order to beat it.
Last edited by cyqu; 2013-09-30 at 11:08 AM.