Is Garrosh Hellscream the most difficult raid boss in WoW history?

[God8010]

But posters are claiming different things.

• You have classic raiders coming in here telling everyone raiding is about as hard now as it was back in classic and that on average, raiders are about as good now as they were back in the day.
  
• You have modern day raiders coming in here telling us that modern day raiders are the best raiders ever and everyone prior to their time was much worse.

You can't possibly agree with everyone. Pick your side!

He is correct though. Even what we do now was being done back then. Complaining, comparing to what we knew and everything else that annoys us. Nothing has changed while everything has changed. The endless irony is most of the entertainment.

[intrinsc]

Baseball is a more technical game than it was back in the 1930s. Yet, the 1939 Yankees are considered the best team ever and a lot of players from that era are often compared to the best modern players. Raiders from years ago were still as good, if not better, than modern raiders. Because they didn't have today's encounters doesn't mean they were worse. Yesterday's raiders are still in top world guilds and they adjusted just fine.

[Clrg]

Which raid since BC had the final boss in HC open in day 1?

[Deleted]

If he requires more gear, it doesn't mean it's exactly harder. It's artificial tuning. Hard means complicated not "almost impossible to do with current HPS/DPS levels" as seems to be the case atm on Garrosh.

[Deleted]

worst post ever. well done

[Deleted]

If he requires more gear, it doesn't mean it's exactly harder. It's artificial tuning. Hard means complicated not "almost impossible to do with current HPS/DPS levels" as seems to be the case atm on Garrosh.

Almost impossible is fine IMO (like lei shen I guess). This means that practice and maximizing will get you a kill. That's difficulty. Tuned impossible is not good however.

[Polarthief]

Short Answer: Lolno. Asia already killed him <2 weeks after Heroic was unlocked. He was killed on Day 1 of the patch going live on Normal. We'll see a Heroic West First kill by next week at the LATEST.

Long Answer: There have been much harder/tougher bosses that have taken significantly more time, or even requiring a nerf to even kill. Ragnaros Heroic was actually done in an incorrect way because of his legendary difficulty (Magma Geyser was NOT intended to have triangulation in the equation, and Blizzard has outright claimed that the strategy used was not originally intended), and Ra-Den, the most recent end-of-the-tier bosses was also done incorrectly. Blizzard wanted us to experience Anima phases, but we simply skipped them in favor of purely doing Vita phases. Granted, he wasn't as hard as other bosses (Lei Shen 25H for example... *Shudders*)

Trust me when I say this, but there most likely will never be bosses as hard as previous ones from Lich King or previous.

Some of the hardest fights:

- Almost anything in Vanilla (due to the lack of knowledge and lack of tools to use at your disposal for the unfair challenges)
- All of Naxx due to so few people even getting to see it, let alone clearing it (a reason why it was remade as T7 for Lich King's release)
- Every end-boss in T5/T6 in BC, as well as most of the bosses in T6
- Mimiron Firefighter, Yogg+0, and Algalon on 25m

[Mormolyce]

Until it takes longer than the bosses on this list, I'd doubt it.

http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/163...rld_first_list

It's still VERY early yet. A further breakdown from this link:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2794651519

#1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
#2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
#3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
#3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
#5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
#6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
#7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
#8 Al'ar <Phoenix God> - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
#9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
#10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
#11 Kael'thas Sunstrider <Lord of the Blood Elves> - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
#12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
#13 Lady Vashj <Coilfang Matron> - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
#14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
#15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
#16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
#16 tied Hydross the Unstable <Duke of Currents> - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
#16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
#16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
#20 tied Archimonde <The Defiler> - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
#20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006
#22 tied Mimiron Firefighter 25 - 8 days from Ensidia's first pull. May 1st 2009
#22 tied Sapphiron - 8 days from Four Horsemen dying. 2nd September 2006
#22 tied Gruul the Dragonkiller - 8 days from Maulgar's death. 3rd February 2007
#25 Reliquary of Lost Souls - 6 days from Gurtogg's death. 2nd June 2007
#26 tied Kel'Thuzad - 5 days from Sapphiron's death. 7th September 2006
#26 tied Kil'jaeden <The Deceiver> - 5 days from the opening of the third Sunwell gate. 25th May 2008
#26 tied Sinestra - 5 days from Heroic Cho'gall's death. January 20th 2011.
#29 tied Heroic Anub'arak 25 - 4 days from Heroic Twin Val'kyr's death. September 6th 2009.
#29 tied M'uru. 4 days from the opening of the second Sunwell gate. 4th May 2008

Mmmm, I think it would be far more interesting to look at the number of pulls each boss took than the number of days. I'm sure nobody actually tracks that though.

Even so, you can't compare Vanilla and TBC bosses to current, world first guilds are far better and devote far more time to the game now.

And so has Blizzard's tuning, by the way. You realise that Blizzard could easily create a boss that nobody could ever beat right? All they have to do is get the enrage wrong.

[Keren]

Some of the hardest fights:

- Almost anything in Vanilla (due to the lack of knowledge and lack of tools to use at your disposal for the unfair challenges)
- All of Naxx due to so few people even getting to see it, let alone clearing it (a reason why it was remade as T7 for Lich King's release)
- Every end-boss in T5/T6 in BC, as well as most of the bosses in T6
- Mimiron Firefighter, Yogg+0, and Algalon on 25m

jup jup, I would love to see how the average raider today would fight against Lady Vashj. ahaha they would utterly fail if they wouldn't get told which ability is hitting next, which mobs spawns where and dont let me start about macros for communication...

[Celista]

Some bosses are not relevant at all (like C'thun, because of the "wait for the fix/nerf" requirement)

You'd have to take out bosses like H:LK then because that boss wasn't downed by Paragon until the day that the 5% buff went live.

[jbombard]

Mmmm, I think it would be far more interesting to look at the number of pulls each boss took than the number of days. I'm sure nobody actually tracks that though.

Even so, you can't compare Vanilla and TBC bosses to current, world first guilds are far better and devote far more time to the game now.

And so has Blizzard's tuning, by the way. You realise that Blizzard could easily create a boss that nobody could ever beat right? All they have to do is get the enrage wrong.

I agree that they can't be compared.

I am not sure about the time. Vanilla required a shit load of time in preparation to raid, now you don't spend nearly as much time preparing. If we are talking about time in the actual instance than yeah, but farming mats for consumables, resist gear, not to mention helping getting guildies attuned and geared up were all activities that they had to do.

Also 2 major differences were addons and availability of information. Raiders back then were doing a lot more themselves without as much help from addons. We have much better tools now to let people know what they need to do. So I am not sure people are necessarily better now, we have better tools now, we also have a lot more players now so just out of pure numbers we have more good players now and that helps a lot when putting a raid team together.

I agree I would love to see number of pulls.

[rebecca191]

M'uru was several hundred for most guilds IIRC. Ours was 300 ish? ugh...

[Tehterokkar]

I like how everyone is forgetting a fancy fact about Heroic LK.... You could only do 50 attempts PER WEEK. That's pretty much about 6-8 hours of raiding per week.

[Zantos]

Short Answer: Lolno. Asia already killed him <2 weeks after Heroic was unlocked. He was killed on Day 1 of the patch going live on Normal. We'll see a Heroic West First kill by next week at the LATEST.

Im not ready to agree with this until we get some real kills going. They vastly out geared H10garrosh, giving us a not so good kill to go by. It would be like killing heroic LK 10 with heroic LK 25 gear. Of course its easy. They were at an ilevel unobtainable until very late in the expansion by a lucky few who get almost decked fully in heroic warfarged (if that ilevel is even possible with 4pc set bonus) when they killed H 10 Garrosh.

OP: We don't know and won't know until someone gets the real first kill. At this time all we have to go by is a bunch of people out gearing the boss by miles and going in and roflmao stomping him. Wait until Method, or Blood Legion, or Paragon, or any top end guild kills it in gear the EU/US can actually get. At this time, you can't really judge. Already explained why they don't count for gauging its difficulty.

[Bellum]

Just because it took guilds a lot of days or even months to kill a boss doesn't mean they spent as much time on it. Guilds were not even close to as competitive back in Vanilla, top guilds like Nihilum didn't even use voice communication.

I take it you've never seen the video for world first Illidan? They used voice communication, even then. In fact, it was used on pretty much every world first I can think of, even back to vanilla. Watch the videos. Most of them have the vent/TS chatter dubbed in.

[Polarthief]

Im not ready to agree with this until we get some real kills going. They vastly out geared H10garrosh, giving us a not so good kill to go by. It would be like killing heroic LK 10 with heroic LK 25 gear. Of course its easy. They were at an ilevel unobtainable until very late in the expansion by a lucky few who get almost decked fully in heroic warfarged (if that ilevel is even possible with 4pc set bonus) when they killed H 10 Garrosh.

Okay, so a bunch of Asians got together, were smart, and decked out their best 10 raiders in 25H gear, then went ahead and did it on 10H, even though, this isn't the official "East First" kill either because they killed him on an EASIER DIFFICULTY.

I still think you underestimate the rest of the raiding populace. They got down H Blackfuse and H Paragons, so I legit would be greatly surprised if not one of them kills Garrosh on Heroic by next week.

[Mormolyce]

I've heard it from the best raiders in the world that NO bosses compare to Heroic Lich King and Heroic Ragnaros. That list is irrelevant when the raiders who were in the world top 10 for most if not all of the bosses say this.

Heroic Lich King was deliberately overtuned so that he was either impossible or close to impossible to kill before the first 5% buff. Artificial difficulty.

Awesome fight all the same.

[Zantos]

Okay, so a bunch of Asians got together, were smart, and decked out their best 10 raiders in 25H gear, then went ahead and did it on 10H, even though, this isn't the official "East First" kill either because they killed him on an EASIER DIFFICULTY.

I still think you underestimate the rest of the raiding populace. They got down H Blackfuse and H Paragons, so I legit would be greatly surprised if not one of them kills Garrosh on Heroic by next week.

That may be true, but you had based your answer on that one fact. Can only wait and see what happens.

[godded]

Am I wrong or was Ouro significantly easier than C'thun (specially cause bugged/unkillable) and the only reason he is on top of that list is cause guilds who actually got to C'thun were focusing 100% (world first and all) on that and skipped him until C'thun was dead?

[Mormolyce]

jup jup, I would love to see how the average raider today would fight against Lady Vashj. ahaha they would utterly fail if they wouldn't get told which ability is hitting next, which mobs spawns where and dont let me start about macros for communication...

Is that a joke? Pass the parcel too hard for modern raiders? If you're comparing modern LFR to hardcore TBC progression guilds then maybe lol.

I agree that they can't be compared.

I am not sure about the time. Vanilla required a shit load of time in preparation to raid, now you don't spend nearly as much time preparing. If we are talking about time in the actual instance than yeah, but farming mats for consumables, resist gear, not to mention helping getting guildies attuned and geared up were all activities that they had to do.

True, I have no hard evidence of the time investment or anything, that is just what I've heard from progression raiders who played from Vanilla to present. Though I will say putting in 300 pulls on a boss in a week is a lot more punishing and indicates far more investment in the game than just farming mats.

Note: I'm not saying that the insane amount of time WF guilds put in is a GOOD thing. I mean they love it so power to them but of course normal players shouldn't try to emulate that. Not if they value sleeping, eating and shitting :P

Also 2 major differences were addons and availability of information. Raiders back then were doing a lot more themselves without as much help from addons. We have much better tools now to let people know what they need to do. So I am not sure people are necessarily better now, we have better tools now, we also have a lot more players now so just out of pure numbers we have more good players now and that helps a lot when putting a raid team together.

I agree I would love to see number of pulls.

This is absolutely true, I'm sure that at the time the challenge was very real for this and other reasons. The nature of the game and the metagame have evolved a lot, now things like classes, rotations, boss mechanics etc are taken as a given where before they were the whole challenge.

When I say modern guilds are far better, that's not to disparage the old raiding guilds. Today's HM raiders have a knowledge base and personal experience of up to 8 years to draw from. That changes everything, and Blizzard has increased the challenge of the mechanics and enrages to compensate.