Is Garrosh Hellscream the most difficult raid boss in WoW history?

[Fus Ro Yay]

I feel like people only praise this boss because of what the room looks like. I really can't think of any other reason.

I don't really step outside my lazy cosy home of lfr/ flexi / normals anymore, but Algalon i did do back before icc were released, and oh boy he hits like a truck, i cant think of any boss (except patchwerk who needed to split the cleave damage) that hits so hard in such a short time period. I remember tanks dying on pull because the healers was lagging or just half a second to slow on a shield / heal. and thats just the autoattacks.

for us dps, the fight was a pain aswell, me (hunter) had to kill the dying stars on planned timings to avoid the sudden damage to kill anyone who were to low, avoid the cosmic smash on the floor while doing so and make sure there's enough black holes to go around when Algalon decides to 'divide by zero'
We also had to kite the constallations to close black holes so we had room to move.

Tanks had to manage the pashe strikes and avoid getting pashed out before a big bang and get aggro back ASAP after a big bang had been casted.

other things worth mentioning;
-if no one were attacking algalon (everyone was inside the shadowrealm, or the tank keeping aggro on him died) he wiped the raid.
-heavy raidwide aoe from cosmic strikes and dying star explosions
-had to move into the shadowrealm for big bang to avoid getting oneshotted (except the tank keeping algalon busy so he doesn't wipe raid)
-if you stood in the cosmic smash ring you got knocked up in the air and died from falling damage
-only had a 1h window to kill him each week
-dying stars lost health over time, so some of them could explode at bad timings
-the dpscheck was tight.

[lappee]

My top three:

Yogg 0: Following on from what I said above about hard/impossible, it’s funny that people are arguing this for the simple reason that only one guild figured out how to kill his pre-nerf state making this possible. I remember Ensidia at the time complaining that they weren’t even bothering with him because the last phase was such a mess. All the other kills pre-nerf that followed only happened after Stars released detailed guides on how to handle the shadow beacons in P3. Even still, most Death’s Demise guilds killed him post-nerf when the beacons were limited to three.

Such a lie that Stars were the only one that killed him pre-nerf, or that we would've used their tactic (which was horrible btw, based on pure luck)
Im personally still pissed that they got the kill before us, specially with the tactic they used.

We've heard from Method that the last 3 bosses (siegecrafter/paragons/garrosh) have been the hardest bosses created in wow. Check the previous couple of pages..

you've also heard people from method state that garrosh is just a gear check

[spoon77]

Such a lie that Stars were the only one that killed him pre-nerf, or that we would've used their tactic (which was horrible btw, based on pure luck)
Im personally still pissed that they got the kill before us, specially with the tactic they used.

Huh? I never said that no one else killed it pre-nerf, and perhaps you did have a different strategy -- but you have to admit that a whole raft of pre-nerf kills followed very quickly after Stars released their guide for P3 beacons.

[Akylios]

We've heard from Method that the last 3 bosses (siegecrafter/paragons/garrosh) have been the hardest bosses created in wow. Check the previous couple of pages..

So you are telling me that members of Method just claimed that their world first kill was not only harder, but in turn more prestigious than any other world first kill ever made by any of their previous competitors? That their guild Method has just managed to pull off the most prestigious kill in WoW's history? And that every other guild's world first kill is just not really comparable to the recent great achievement of Method?

Did it even cross your mind that they might be a tad bit biased in this regard?

[RuneeBH]

so you are telling me that members of method just claimed that their world first kill was not only harder, but in turn more prestigious than any other world first kill ever made by any of their previous competitors? That their guild method has just managed to pull off the most prestigious kill in wow's history? And that every other guild's world first kill is just not really comparable to the recent great achievement of method?

Did it even cross your mind that they might be a tad bit biased in this regard?

"world first normal mode immersius; hardest fight everrrr!"

[Deleted]

Just because this was the last boss you progressed or what? Ragnaros, Lei Shen and Siegecrafter are harder than Yogg+0, just to name a few example where its about group coordination and damage on early progression levels.

Siegecrafter harder than yogg+0, shit need to go the hospital, fell out my chair too hard. Siegecrafter is closer to yogg+1 in difficulty but not even remotely close to yogg+0.

Ragnaros, Lei-Shen and Yogg+0 is a closer comparison, not really sure about those 3.

[Gorthan]

I quit during 5.1, so I have no comment for Garrosh, but I raided at a very high level from Vanilla through to DS and have a few thoughts for this thread.

One I rule out immediately is C’Thun. He was overtuned to the point of impossibility. At the time, people actually believed that Blizzard didn’t even want him killed. After he was nerfed, the first guild that reached him killed him. There’s a big difference between hard to kill and impossible, and pre-nerf C’Thun was the latter.

My top three:

Yogg 0: Following on from what I said above about hard/impossible, it’s funny that people are arguing this for the simple reason that only one guild figured out how to kill his pre-nerf state making this possible. I remember Ensidia at the time complaining that they weren’t even bothering with him because the last phase was such a mess. All the other kills pre-nerf that followed only happened after Stars released detailed guides on how to handle the shadow beacons in P3. Even still, most Death’s Demise guilds killed him post-nerf when the beacons were limited to three.

M’uru: Even despite the first week nerfs, M’uru stands (to me) as the pinnacle of the ultimate gear and skill check. Everyone in the fight had an important job, and most people had more than one job. The adds had to be controlled and killed, he had to be pushed at the right wave and you had to have the damage, healing and situational awareness for the last phase. Pre 3.0, until you had M’uru trinkets and KJ weapons, if one person screwed up, or lagged, the fight would wipe. Pure perfection.

4HM (Vanilla): I could have picked Heroic LK, Heroic Rag or KT/Vashj, as they were all exceptional fights (though the artificial gating of H LK with the ICC buff kind of ruined it) but having 8 warriors wearing 4 piece T3 was a hard enough challenge of its own, let alone the damage they took, managing taunt misses, stack dancing, and keeping everyone alive throughout the fight. There are other fights that were technically more difficult and others that were far more gimmicky but the sheer brute force pain of 4HM I’ll never forget.

I know what you are talking about. But complexity != hard tuned. M'uru complexity was groud level.

[Akylios]

I'll wait for you to get the kill and report back to us

What would me killing him change? You're still taking the word of a person who is praising himself. One thing I've learned in my almost 40 years living on this rock; if a person praises oneself, you should take it with a grain of salt. If someone praises oneself as being the best of all time, you should be even more sceptical. If someone is honestly the best of all time, one won't have to praise oneself and try to convince others of this fact.

Yet now it seems we have at least one Method member essentially running to these forums claiming current day Method is the best guild of all time, and that what anyone else did prior to their latest achievements quite honestly just doesn't really compare, as what everyone else killed world first was plain easier than the last three bosses Method killed. What exactly is it that makes you take this one person's word for it? How can you look at what this person says, at how he praises himself, and say 'yeah, that's a very objective opinion, I'll take his word for it'?

[Kihi]

-only had a 1h window to kill him each week

Really the only difficult aspect of the fight. Ensidia would have killed it the same week they killed Mimiron had there not been a timer.

[Belisaurio]

#1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
#2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
#3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
#3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
#5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
#6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
#7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
#8 Al'ar <Phoenix God> - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
#9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
#10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
#11 Kael'thas Sunstrider <Lord of the Blood Elves> - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
#12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
#13 Lady Vashj <Coilfang Matron> - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
#14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
#15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
#16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
#16 tied Hydross the Unstable <Duke of Currents> - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
#16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
#16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
#20 tied Archimonde <The Defiler> - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
#20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006
#22 tied Mimiron Firefighter 25 - 8 days from Ensidia's first pull. May 1st 2009
#22 tied Sapphiron - 8 days from Four Horsemen dying. 2nd September 2006
#22 tied Gruul the Dragonkiller - 8 days from Maulgar's death. 3rd February 2007
#25 Reliquary of Lost Souls - 6 days from Gurtogg's death. 2nd June 2007
#26 tied Kel'Thuzad - 5 days from Sapphiron's death. 7th September 2006
#26 tied Kil'jaeden <The Deceiver> - 5 days from the opening of the third Sunwell gate. 25th May 2008
#26 tied Sinestra - 5 days from Heroic Cho'gall's death. January 20th 2011.
#29 tied Heroic Anub'arak 25 - 4 days from Heroic Twin Val'kyr's death. September 6th 2009.
#29 tied M'uru. 4 days from the opening of the second Sunwell gate. 4th May 2008

That is a good start. Nobody can't say that "there are more skilled players this days, ergo, this bosses are/were fail". Every time, every raid and every expansion had his "difficult" and that type of difficult was focused on the player base.

[idefiler6]

Up until Lich King, not many top guilds were getting penalized for getting world firsts via exploits, which they had been taking advantage of since Vanilla...so some of those killed dates, though true, may have been extended if it weren't for that fact.

[Deleted]

I'll wait for you to get the kill and report back to us

He's right though. It is in their best interest to claim how their new accomplishment is better than any before.

[Deleted]

Siegecrafter harder than yogg+0, shit need to go the hospital, fell out my chair too hard. Siegecrafter is closer to yogg+1 in difficulty but not even remotely close to yogg+0.

Ragnaros, Lei-Shen and Yogg+0 is a closer comparison, not really sure about those 3.

So you've downed Siegecrafter heroic?

[Deleted]

So you've downed Siegecrafter heroic?

Hopefully tonight.

[Vulgrym]

HLK, Heroic Rag and Yog-0.

lol @ Mu'ru and other BC bosses being listed here; they'd get stomped if Blizz tried to introduce that stuff now.

[Dangg]

He's right though. It is in their best interest to claim how their new accomplishment is better than any before.

Why did they say Lei Shen is way harder than Ra-den then back in T15?
I also can't remember KIN Raiders praising the difficulty of Dragon Soul.

[Reptar]

A lot of the debates going on this thread are a matter of perception. I know this doesn't apply to everyone, but I would bet a lot of the people voting for the newer bosses are raiders that potentially did not raid serious in Vanilla and BC while a lot of the players via for the old school bosses may not raid anymore (again I know this isn't true for everyone).

What everyone has to remember is that the times have changed. Just because the bosses now are clearly more difficult from a mechanic, that doesn't mean the simplified bosses in the past were in fact easier. In the past raids had less buffs and cooldowns to help save raid members when somoeone would screw up. There was actually less spells in the game, so it was much more difficult for healers to recover on bad attempts. There were less add ons that would help you track everything that you needed to down a boss. So again, you really have to look at the whole picture of what makes a boss difficult. There is obvoiusly its mechanics, but you also have to remember the toolset that was available at the time.

As for myself (I didn't raid in MoP), so here is what I consider to be the most difficult from what I have experienced:

1) Heroic Rag
2) Heroic LK
3) Yogg-0
4) Heroic Al'Akir
5) Heroic Ascendant Council

I have personally never had experience on any Vanilla bosses, Muru pre-nerf, or Lei Shen/Garrosh.

[Toxigen]

HLK, Heroic Rag and Yog-0.

lol @ Mu'ru and other BC bosses being listed here; they'd get stomped if Blizz tried to introduce that stuff now.

Were you one of the 75 players to kill M'uru 1.0?

Hell, I'll even give you 1.1 (take away negative energy causing spell pushback, nothing more).

We're talking hard, not complex here. Yes, M'uru was incredibly well-tuned...but people still had important jobs to do and if one failed, it was a wipe.

[Plarock]

[/U][/B]

a direct quote from pacteh in the world first thread

Pacteh is clearly delusional. Heroic Garrosh took somewhere around 270 attempts for them to kill, I think Blood Legion said it was similar. Lei Shen took well into the 500's for the first kills, and Ragnaros was right about the same. Garrosh cannot be compared to Raggnaros OR Lich King, because Garrosh simply isn't that mechanically complicated of a boss. You skip an entire intermission on heroic, and Enrage isn't even remotely close to an issue (kills range in the 15 minute timeframe, with a boss enrage of 18 minutes).

You let me know how a boss that took roughly half the attempts of Heroic Ragnaros, Heroic Lich King, or Heroic Lei Shen is a "harder" boss than those before it.

Pacteh likes to talk a lot of smack, so of course the one time they get a final boss overall first (without Paragon beating them to it) he is going to act like it's the hardest thing ever and they did nothing short of a miracle to kill it. Read the ManaFlask article, Pacteh talks about how amazing Garrosh was and how it's the number 1 fight of all time, and the other guildies didn't rank it anywhere near as high as he did.

It's also worth noting that they wiped for HOURS on Blackfuse the night before and same day as their repeat Heroic Garrosh kill. They 2 shot Heroic Garrosh, not counting the ninja pull insta-wipe they did shortly after the Thrall RP. It would have been a one shot had the rogue they had kiting an Iron Star not been picked for Malice. Blackfuse is a mechanically harder boss than Garrosh. Paragons is more of a gear check and a "figure out the right kill order" boss, and Garrosh was a gear check. An end boss deserves to be more than just a "have enough gear to skip an entire portion of the fight", and a heroic-only phase should have more than 2 easily controllable mechanics.

More pulls went into Blackfuse and Paragons than Garrosh. Think about that.

[Ahdehl]

Garrosh is nothing more than a dps check with the exception of a couple of key moments in the fight. Kiting Ironstar into him at the correct time in the last phase, dealing with Malice, and doing the intermissions quick enough. The entire fight is patchwerk for most people in the raid.