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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Invection View Post
    Hi, I'm 29 and live in the US. On the eve of obamacare, I am looking at higher premiums. At least in connecticut, I will be spending roughly 100$ more monthly and have to spend around 4,500 out of pocket for obamacare till the insurance picks up, nevermind offseason wage loss. I work as a contractor, Painter/Non-excavation Landsacper and I do pretty well roughly 55k for 7 months of work, I work part time at walmarts and go fulltime near the holidays as retail picks up. Now, come this years holidays season I will be set back at least 12.5 hours, and no longer be able to get overtime. Now, wal-marts is not really a ideal job to think about a income, its honestly garbage(especially with profit sharing being nixed) but even still it helps us contractors who have familys who can't work year round in New England. My big question to the mmo community, is how would you make health insurance?
    Personally, I would split health insurance between government care and non profit insurance. I would implement non-profit insurance to handle co-pays. People would pay be able to pay 50$ per pay period and more towards plans that would ideally cover their personal medical needs.
    Let a tax go out that would handle long term illness, such as cancer, disability's and such?

    What do you think?
    I think healthcare should be run without shutting down the government.

  2. #162
    All of economics boils down to the rational allocation of scarce and limited resources between the individual members of a system. In its most basic form, it is the study of human action / it is a decision science. In the case of the United States, for example (just chose the US arbitrarily), there are about 300,000,000 autonomous or semi-autonomous (e.g., children, dependents, crippled, etc.), rationally-acting, and inherently self-serving organisms (this is by biological design - some capacity for generosity and self-sacrifice exists by biological design as well, but it breaks down on the larger scale; it really only functions well when the individual members know each other well; e.g., living in a village), all seeking to survive and reproduce.

    Given that there are basic necessities that enable life functions that each organism must acquire, how best to allocate these resources? In the case of a small village, individuals could meet up, discuss things, and cooperate with one another and come to some sensible agreement. Each member of society has a vested interest in his or her own personal survival, as well as the survival of his or her fellow villager. In this sense, central planning is made much simpler, and forced compliance may not be necessary since each villager knows one another and might be more inclined to cooperate (although forced compliance could be achieved through shaming, guilting, or even force if need be - every now and then someone might disagree).

    As the size of the population increases, however, this simple village model becomes increasingly more complex until it, in fact, breaks down. It breaks down for two reasons: 1) Lack of information. 2) Lack of compliance.

    Friedrich Hayek published his seminal work and his classic critique of socialist systems and planned / command economies in his work "The Road to Serfdom" (If you enjoyed Orwell's 1984, Serfdom will be nothing short of enlightening for you - like reading the screenplay or the behind the scene's look at 1984). Here is his fundamental premise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNbYdbf3EEc (He does not oppose socialism on the grounds of morality, but on the grounds of technical unfeasibility)

    Going back to our discussion, the reason why market economics works is because instead of having one single entity trying to centrally plan and direct all of the human activity within society, there are literally 300,000,000 entities all coordinating with one another in real time via supply, demand, and the presence of price information, and information is the key here to all of economics. Price is a single, unified piece of information that lets each individual actor in the system instantly assess a good or service's relative value compared to every other good or service in the system at that point in time. It is sensitive to local and global supply and demand, and can change instantaneously to reflect scarcity, abundance, time preference, and other variables - it does this all in real time, synthesizing every other variable simultaneously (e.g., the price of a hamburger must take into account the price every single ingredient, every service that must be rendered in order to prepare, market, and deliver it, as well as other random factors such as time preference, time of day, season, etc.).

    The second critical piece of information in an economic system is profit. Profit is not a dirty word. Profit is the signal that tells us that we should do something for someone whom we do not personally know. Profit, along with the presence of price, is what enables the rational allocation of resources in a sufficiently large system of autonomous, rationally-acting, self-serving organisms.

    If we are to respect individual autonomy, then we must accept that no single economic system ought to force the compliance of all of its members through force (unless every member agrees. again, in the case of a village it might work, but as the population size increases, this gets hairier). If we could enforce compliance on a large scale, then we could make the economy incredibly efficient. Hayek and other classic, Austrian, free-market economists valued individual autonomy, as such if you want to maximize this variable, then you must minimize the central control variable in order to enable maximal efficiency of rational allocation. If you want maximal efficiency from a central-control standpoint, then you must minimize autonomy.

    And yes, this argument does, in fact, apply to health care. "Health Care" is just an umbrella term. What it and any other "market" comes down to is the rendering of services and execution of tasks. Here are the real questions you have to ask yourself:

    1. How big is my economic system?
    2. How easy will it be to enforce compliance of societal members?
    3. Is this just?


    In general, markets work great when there is the presence of accurate price information, competition, and no externalities / distortion of normal market mechanisms through things like excessive subsidies, taxes, and regulations. More often than not, it's those companies that lobby hard to get bills passed that specifically favor them that fuck the whole thing up. The issue is corporatism, fascism, and crony capitalism - not normal market mechanisms in and of themselves. The politicians (especially the Fed) are just as much to blame as the companies that benefit from using force or fraud to achieve their ends.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrodevil View Post
    Even people with semi-elective procedures get done in the public system in a reasonably timely fashion. We've had this system so long, noone questions large percentage of government expenditure going into it. People see free healthcare as a right, not a privilege. Our governments spends approx 14-17% of our GDP on healthcare (less than the USA)
    Except in Queensland ... where our right wing Newman closed down all the public hospitals for much of this year.

  4. #164
    The issue here is that, currently, our insurance market IS a free market. The problem? Insurance companies are the customers, and each and every citizen is a provider. So the insurance companies get to decide who they want to insure and who they don't (and even if they can't directly turn people down, they can set prices high enough that it would be worth their while either way to take on expensive "customers"). And, in an idea free market, the providers that the customers don't want to buy from must do something to improve their services. But ordinary citizens can only do so much to improve their health, especially without hospitalization and/or medical services (the very thing insurance is supposed to cover).

    But the shit doesn't hit the fan until something happens involving hospitalization. Insured patients have to go through a lot of restrictions and red tape to make sure that whatever treatment they get is covered by their insurance. But the uninsured do not have to deal with this problem, since nothing is covered. These are the people that go to the emergency room for a runny nose, or, worse, go there after they have a serious condition because they can't afford regular doctor visits. And these uninsured generally can't afford insurance, so they obviously can't afford the expensive medical care. But, according to law, these people must be cared for anyway. So hospitals get stuck with the bill, and they have to cover their costs somehow. Which means that the insured get stuck with the bill as well, inflating insurance costs.

    Imagine a store where people walked in, took what they wanted, and then you tried to negotiate a price with them before they walk out the door. That is our hospitals' business model as it stands. No wonder it's a giant mess.

    And then there's the issue of insurance being largely tied to jobs, but I won't go into that.

    TL;DR - Insurance companies are allowed to pick-and-choose their patients, insurance bureaucracy drives prices up, and mages are OP.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly Willy View Post
    I dislike the "I'm paying for your _____" arguments, as they imply that the individual is directly being forced to pay for another. That's not how it works. Everybody pays for everybody else, as well as themselves. You are paying for your own care as well as the care of others.
    which is interesting because it's always the people who contribute the least who expect to receive the most..
    the most beautiful post I have ever read.. thank you Dr-1337 http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post22624432

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by ishootblanks View Post
    which is interesting because it's always the people who contribute the least who expect to receive the most..
    It's statements like that really make me wonder what the hell is going on here

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    It's statements like that really make me wonder what the hell is going on here
    Its typical ishootblanks rhetoric. Don't dwell on it.

  8. #168
    I am Murloc!
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    I'm happy with my free universal healthcare. You can do whatever you like.
    've is short for have. C/Sh/Would've or c/sh/would have. Not c/sh/would of.

  9. #169
    Immortal Dezerte's Avatar
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    It seems to work fairly well in Sweden, and I've heard Australia has it pretty good as well. With that said, there's always room for improvement.
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    I’m not that arrogant.

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  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by OzoAndIndi View Post
    As a fellow US citizen, hard for me to say really. We don't know any different, whether what we've had is better, or if what many other countries do might be better despite the scare tactics against it, or... who knows.

    Honestly if any changes would be a hardship on you at the moment you might see if you'd quality for Medicaid at all for a bit. Some states are expanding it, including CT.
    Government controlled, being from a formerly pure welfare state, privatising drives prices/costs up instead of down, and good independant watch dogs and rules for the fraudleus people among to be blindsided.
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  11. #171
    Scarab Lord GreatOak's Avatar
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    Ralph Nader was pretty smart here. I don't agree with everything he says but he's a role model of mine
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides, 400BC.

  12. #172
    I like it in canada. Yes we pay for it, but I don't care. I have a good job, I pay a lot. But I can still pay for everything and live a good life. And I know that I have something protecting me if I crash.

    - - - Updated - - -

    If all the people in the US puts all the money they already spend in a public system, they will stop paying 200$ for a bottle of Tylenol and it will be the healthiest country in the world.

  13. #173
    Bloodsail Admiral Zaydin's Avatar
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    I'd definitely advocate for a government run option; it's worked fairly well in pretty much every other western industrialized nation, after all. As soon as you make something for-profit, it stops being about providing the best possible service for consumers, and instead about maximizing profits at the expense of consumers, and cutting corners where possible.

  14. #174
    Scarab Lord GreatOak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morogoth View Post
    If all the people in the US puts all the money they already spend in a public system, they will stop paying 200$ for a bottle of Tylenol and it will be the healthiest country in the world.
    I wouldn't go that far
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides, 400BC.

  15. #175
    Free market if you can afford it. If you cannot afford it, govt subsidized payed through taxes.

  16. #176
    Brewmaster Palmz's Avatar
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    I would like to see free health care for everyone, but if I have the option to pay for better medical care, then I would.
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  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Palmz View Post
    I would like to see free health care for everyone, but if I have the option to pay for better medical care, then I would.
    Free health care doesn't exist. Med school isn't free, and doctor's shouldn't be forced to work for no compensation. Medicine also isn't free.

    Just because the government forces someone else to pay for it doesn't make it free. Even if you are on the receiving end of this "free" health care, it still comes with a political cost. You now have to continue to vote for the people that gave you the "free" candy. I'm sure that is just a coincidence though.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by supertony51 View Post
    Personally I like the Free market model.
    Could you please give us an example of how it's working? Because - where I'm standing - the very reason we're having this debate on Healthcare is because the Free Market Model has completely failed and has made us not only most expensive, but also the most excluding medical model on the planet.
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

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    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  19. #179
    Stood in the Fire
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    I personally just love the NHS. That just gets eaten up out of taxes, and we don't have to worry about anything. NHS has been bashed a bit recently but tbh, I've never experienced problems.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by magik8ball View Post
    The issue here is that, currently, our insurance market IS a free market. The problem? Insurance companies are the customers, and each and every citizen is a provider. So the insurance companies get to decide who they want to insure and who they don't (and even if they can't directly turn people down, they can set prices high enough that it would be worth their while either way to take on expensive "customers"). And, in an idea free market, the providers that the customers don't want to buy from must do something to improve their services. But ordinary citizens can only do so much to improve their health, especially without hospitalization and/or medical services (the very thing insurance is supposed to cover).

    But the shit doesn't hit the fan until something happens involving hospitalization. Insured patients have to go through a lot of restrictions and red tape to make sure that whatever treatment they get is covered by their insurance. But the uninsured do not have to deal with this problem, since nothing is covered. These are the people that go to the emergency room for a runny nose, or, worse, go there after they have a serious condition because they can't afford regular doctor visits. And these uninsured generally can't afford insurance, so they obviously can't afford the expensive medical care. But, according to law, these people must be cared for anyway. So hospitals get stuck with the bill, and they have to cover their costs somehow. Which means that the insured get stuck with the bill as well, inflating insurance costs.

    Imagine a store where people walked in, took what they wanted, and then you tried to negotiate a price with them before they walk out the door. That is our hospitals' business model as it stands. No wonder it's a giant mess.

    And then there's the issue of insurance being largely tied to jobs, but I won't go into that.

    TL;DR - Insurance companies are allowed to pick-and-choose their patients, insurance bureaucracy drives prices up, and mages are OP.
    Obamacare fixes this.

    No one can be denied coverage, insurance companies can't pick and choose anymore.

    Everyone must be insured or face a fine, so the free rider problem you mention is now solved.

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