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  1. #181
    High Overlord Skajten's Avatar
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    I'd rather blizz trying to improve the gameplay rather than graphics.
    Insanity is my disease!

  2. #182
    To be fair, Nintendo has been around longer than Blizzard and their engines will be better until their senior developers are replaced. Nintendo was around during a time when memory management actually mattered down to the last bit. These new developers have no idea what that is.
    Last edited by Phasma; 2013-09-29 at 07:22 PM.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Synthaxx View Post
    Artists. Graphics-technical. Modelers/3D artists. They all have to collaborate with other departments. We're not talking about a 1-man project. There's literally hundred of different texture formats out there, hundreds of different model formats and revisions to formats, and a million and one ways of pulling it all together. If you want new texture or model formats to work, you need the engine coders to work with you to get it working. You've got thousands of things to consider, and with WoW, system compatibility is a big one. You've got 2 platforms (Windows and OS X), legacy compatibility, and you've got to make sure that it all works and fits with the ideal of the game.

    A few weeks ago, there was a picture on the front page that showed the 4 different layers needed to make a texture 'work'. You've got your AO layer, your heightmap, your normal map, and your RGB channels layer. Add to that a specular map, perhaps a bumpmap. They don't just create themselves.



    Then this IS NOT about graphics, it's about the combat system. I've talked about this a lot in the past, but the inherent design behind an MMORPG is one where there's a lot of data sources and a lot of clients, and everything needs to be kept in sync, which means a lot of data being sent many times per second, and having to be parsed at the client. If your system is choking to death, then it's the fault of your system, either because you're running a fuckton or out of date addons, or because you're trying to play on a 25W toaster.

    WoW's graphics engine is completely fine. It is not at fault. What does cause problems is the combat system and the sheer amount of data. People still think FPS is completely affected by what they can see, it's not. In fact, what you can see is often not the culprit of FPS problems - it's the data and the processing of that data by the CPU, and the object handling that cause FPS drops.

    Take a look at something like Supreme Commander (RTS). Up to around 250*8 units (2000), the game runs fine. As you increase the number of units, the performance drop drastically. When you get to about 400*8 (3200), your FPS will have dropped by half if not more. This isn't because of the visual, it's because you've added another 1200 sources of data that each need to handle queued commands as well as the automatic micromanagment (e.g. pathfinding, engage on sight, etc). When you get to 600*8 (4800), your FPS will be close to single digits. In fact, if you make it to this point, the game will probably be closing in on the 2GB RAM 'cap' -- after that point, the game would outright crash unless you'd set it to be LAA. Either way, the performance drops to crazy low numbers, and it often takes several minutes for units to respond to commands. It's absolutely NOT the number of visual units there, it's the data that's associated with them that's causing the problems. These performance issues occurred even in single-player skirmishes against AI. Against other players, you're only handling your own units, and the visual representation of the other units is just that, visual. The data for those units isn't calculated by your system, it's merely synced over the network between 2-7 other players.

    The same applies for WoW, except instead of units dealing set amounts of damage, you've got characters dealing variable amounts of damage and healing to various targets, as well as environmental effects that might cause damage. Realistically, you've got 50 channels of data, or 2x25 arrays (read*25 and write*25). You could simply update each value with 'last damage dealt' (negative for damage dealt, positive for healing done) and 'last damage received' (negative for damage received, positive for healing received), but that doesn't tell you the source of the damage/healing, nor any details about it. What you're actually looking at are lots of events like this;
    Code:
    8/3 23:04:48.812  SPELL_HEAL,0x010000000520AAF6,"Yedia",0x518,0x0,0x01000000051B0B10,"Mistweavez",0x518,0x0,117640,"Spinning Crane Kick",0x8,0x01000000051B0B10,256443,18526,9263,0,345000,963,963,0,nil
    That's 1 single in-game combat event, and it basically provides all information about that specific event. There's 22 pieces of data, 23 if you include timestamp data. In this specific combat log sample, there's 15 of those (each for a different player), that shows how much healing was done by that Spinning Crane Kick, and all 15 of those occurred at exactly the same moment in time (i.e. 23:04:48.812 exactly). That's 330 pieces of data excluding the timestamp and all that has to be parsed by the in-game addon API. This combat log is from last month. In a 25-player raid situation, you're looking at 25 sources of data minimum for each event, and AoE healing and AoE damage increases this number even further.

    TLDR: Visual IS NOT the cause of FPS problems, data and object processing is.

    Do you think a viable solution should be an option to disable the "global" combat log? this will affect certains addons but why you need 25 recounts in raids? your pc will only process the boss and your character data.

  4. #184
    I can't understand how one could ignore, that WoW bein built on a RTS engine is apparently not on par with genre competitors when it comes to the graphics. WoW has terrible lighting and shader, with shadows being actual dark textures drawn on the scene, no normal maps and awful textures (even on brand new armor & content).

    WoW's engine complete utter bullshit when it comes to utilizing today's multi core CPU's and highly advanced GPU's, theoretically able to push hundreds of millions of polygons in the blink of an eye. It even creates a new thread for every unit/doodad that is drawn on the scene.

    The only improvements since launch that I could recall are some higher res textures, marginally better polycount, godrays, new water shaders & shadows and ambient occlusion. WoW needs better polycount on armor & characters, better lighting.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Masterik View Post
    Do you think a viable solution should be an option to disable the "global" combat log? this will affect certains addons but why you need 25 recounts in raids? your pc will only process the boss and your character data.
    No and no.

    Combat log is used by the game client to figure out what others are doing. Without combat logging you wouldn't know who's casting what even in your own raid group which would be very annoying for healers.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  6. #186
    WoW is 10 years old. GTA V is 10 days old. And to be fair, WoW does an amazing job with what they have - Blizzard had some brilliant foresight in making the game so stylized so that the graphical shortfalls would be less apparent.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by execrutr View Post
    I can't understand how one could ignore, that WoW bein built on a RTS engine
    That argument is so incredibly retarded that people should be flogged publicly for using it.

    You could just as well say Doom3 is based on Wolfenstein3D engine with the same logic as claiming that WoW runs on WC3 engine. There's 15 years of evolution on both, and very little shared code from the starting point.

    Quote Originally Posted by execrutr View Post
    is apparently not on par with genre competitors when it comes to the graphics.
    Graphics get outdated fast... A game which is photorealistic today looks like turd in five years but good gameplay never goes out of fashion. All genre competitors look nicer with newer graphics but the gameplay is shit. Feel free to guess if gameplay or graphics gives games the longevity?
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  8. #188
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    The engine is an ancient mashup of and already old engine. It's a miracle it looks this good.
    I am the lucid dream
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  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    Yes, it is a piece of garbage. Why do you think I'm asking for a more efficient engine?
    Or there's the alternative of upgrading instead of asking for "BETTERGRAPHICSCOREKTHX".
    Laptops are also not really good gaming machines unless you spec for ones with specific capabilitys. Also, the 360, while older hardware, it's ment for pure gaming, plus they can optimize for one pure setting.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by execrutr View Post
    I can't understand how one could ignore, that WoW bein built on a RTS engine is apparently not on par with genre competitors when it comes to the graphics. WoW has terrible lighting and shader, with shadows being actual dark textures drawn on the scene, no normal maps and awful textures (even on brand new armor & content).

    WoW's engine complete utter bullshit when it comes to utilizing today's multi core CPU's and highly advanced GPU's, theoretically able to push hundreds of millions of polygons in the blink of an eye. It even creates a new thread for every unit/doodad that is drawn on the scene.

    The only improvements since launch that I could recall are some higher res textures, marginally better polycount, godrays, new water shaders & shadows and ambient occlusion. WoW needs better polycount on armor & characters, better lighting.
    WoW's engine has even less in common with Warcraft 3's engine than Portal 2 does with Half Life 2 and a lot of newer games have poorer multi core threading than WoW; though admittedly the bar is set extremely low there. (Rift doesn't even have multi core functionality last time I looked and GW2's was marginally better than WoW's).
    Armor does have a higher polycount these days in comparison to the early days and there has been some lighting improvements, although it could always use more. The main problem with WoW's engine is their is so much junk accumulated in it that the final results don't measure up to the performance needed, with completely unnecessary slowdowns for many people. It is what is and WoW is an almost ten year old game running uninterrupted with multiple additions and that is just going to have negative consequences for optimization and it has very little to do with the fact Warcraft 3 was a RTS; just check WoW against it's contemporaries and you will be surprised just how well the old girl is holding up.
    "New engine" seems to the big buzzwords around this subject, but I have never seen a truly successful engine rehaul on the scale some people expect of an engine rehaul ( I hear EVE has done a pretty good job but I never really played that game so can't comment); Azeroth isn't going to suddenly have Crysis 3 fidelity but is only ever going to have enhanced versions of existing assets, much like Blizzard are doing incrementally instead of doing it all in the one day.
    Barring a few improvements ( such as the infamous player models and some other lighting improvements) the game is looking about as good as it's ever going to look and the only thing which could be realistically argued for is to ask for it to be less of a burden on computer resources.
    WoW looks great compared to it's contemporaries but comparing it to GTA V is like comparing the fidelity of a gramophone against a Blu-Ray. Things are what they are, and if graphical fidelity is important to your gaming then playing a 10 year old game is never going to yield the best results.

  11. #191
    Scarab Lord Jevlin's Avatar
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    No, WoW looks fine. The problem is that the graphics they deliver is WAY more taxing on a computer system than it should be.

    I think it has something to do with old code still being active in the background. Like they just pile new code over the heaps of ancient shit code since way back in the day. And spell visuals are the biggest villain in this game since KJ. Not even joking. It seems like every spell effect is it's own NPC with AI, directives and calculated travel paths. In a raid you have like 4000 actors just flying around..No wonder the fps drops. The spell effects in this game is too expensive for what it needs to be, for what the engine can handle. That is the only problems imo.
    Something, Something, Something, Dark Side.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Syl3r View Post
    the problem with wows engine isnt that how it looks but how it runs.
    i have not much money, so always lowspec pc. but when i get a new graphicscard that is better than what i have, wow loses fps....
    just for coparisant:
    i currently run with a ati 7750 and have 60fps with high ghraphics. when i compare that to the x800 i used just a few weeks before i have the same performance..... maybe 5 fps more but nothing i would actually see.
    wow just scales realy bad with graphiccard advancement, that needs to be adressed
    Buying a newer card isn't always better. You need to buy a better card. With wow though, you'd be better off buying a better CPU.

  13. #193
    The graphics are so subpar because Activision won't invest in the game unless it is sold in the Blizzard Store.

    If they find a way to sell upgraded graphics in the Blizzard Store, we will get some awesome graphics real fast, for a price.

  14. #194
    Herald of the Titans Abstieg's Avatar
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    Model-wise, WoW struggles, but other than that, WoW's graphics are fantastic for what they are based on. No qualms at all.

  15. #195
    WoW graphics are amazing. Just look at the valley of four winds or kun lai summit. Does this look bad:




    It looks awesome to me

  16. #196
    is that picture suppose to look good?
    the landscape is nice and inspired, but the graphics quality is quite poor. Low res texture, rough edges, limited view distance. it's not good looking, it's fonctional. WoW engine does not allow for sharp edges on the mountain, that's why you always have those roundish, curvy mountains.

    as to why graphics are so poor? The answer is simple really, because it is enough.

    wow is surfing on millions of subs and someone at blizzard decided that spending money in improving graphic would not increase subs that much. thus it is not a worthy investment to make. Simple really. As long as player will say they are satisfied with current graphical level by continuing their sub, blizzard will not improve it.
    Last edited by Vankrys; 2013-09-29 at 10:18 PM.

  17. #197
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukec1996 View Post
    WoW's current engine is based off of the Classic WoW engine, which was originally based off the Warcraft 3 engine. Considering the roots of WoW's current graphics engine, its damned impressive that they've made as much of it as they have. I don't know what you've seen of WC3, but it isn't terribly good looking, however for a game made in 2003, its up there with some of the best.
    Not really the case, they upgrade everything every expansion. I'm certain they've tweaked the engine itself along the years?

    Water doesn't' even have specular highlights - seriously what kind of water is this, anyone who has lived knows water is shiny.


    You running Dx9? You even said your running it on "fair" which is only marginally better than low? Wow scales to both ends of the GPU market, low settings are really really low (Almost anything can run wow on low. My friends PC runs it, she doesn't even have a GPU. She's running wow off Intel Integrated graphics and the PC is even older than wow is for god sake lol.) ultra is really demanding. Same as most games nowadays. If your laptops only 2 years old, then its your fault not WoW's. You should of bought a better laptop

    GTAv only looks, relatively good, because it only renders things within about 10M of you fully. Everything distant is lower quality. Even on XboxOne/PS4 it wont be that great. Compare GTAv on 360 to the PC release when it comes out I grabbed GTAv and played through the missions last week, at first it looked just like the original Xbox looked when I got my 360. You know that, "wow this was actually that bad? I thought it was good back in the day" kinda thing that happens when you go back a generation after a while. Had the reverse problem a week later when I came back on the PC and played metro, It almost made my eyes melt it looked that damn good. And that's only because I was comparing it to GTA on the 360.

    The style of graphics blizzard go with in wow look good to me, the only lacking department is the models themselves, And the only thing that needs a spruce up is Character models and Outland I believe, they've worked through the rest.
    Last edited by thunterman; 2013-09-29 at 10:27 PM.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    is that picture suppose to look good?
    the landscape is nice and inspired, but the graphics quality is quite poor. Low res texture, rough edges, limited view distance. it's not good looking, it's fonctional. WoW engine does not allow for sharp edges on the mountain, that's why you always have those roundish, curvy mountains.

    as to why graphics are so poor? The answer is simple really, because it is enough.

    wow is surfing on millions of subs and someone at blizzard decided that spending money in improving graphic would not increase subs that much. thus it is not a worthy investment to make. Simple really. As long as player will say they are satisfied with current graphical level by continuing their sub, blizzard will not improve it.
    Yes i think it looks awesome. I love it. And look at this one, the job they made with the MoP zones is incredible.


  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Baltha89 View Post
    Yes i think it looks awesome. I love it. And look at this one, the job they made with the MoP zones is incredible.
    art is a subjective thing i suppose. glad you actually enjoy the game visuals, there is nothing wrong with that.

    I personally found that second picture unattractive, both technically and artistically, but that's just me.
    also you are posting only landscape picture, are you always looking at the game world from afar?
    Do you spend most of the game time on your flying mount?

    here is what you see when you play the game up close

    Last edited by Vankrys; 2013-09-29 at 10:39 PM.

  20. #200
    Water looks fine with the graphic improvement it received if you turn it up and have DX11.

    The engine is old but oddly enough, the game still feels like it's more full of life than more modern MMOs. Our characters feel more like living breathing beings, motion in the game is top notch, and the cartooniness allows the game to be played on more machines.

    Look at "newer" MMOs like FF14:ARR, Rift, Star Wars, Tera, etc. They look all pretty when it comes to the environment graphics but the characters lack the fluidity in motion we have in WoW. The characters feel more choppy and lifeless.

    Pandaria looked pretty amazing as well.

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