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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Without knowing what context you've seen the healing classes in action in, I can tell you that we almost always prio our Disc for progress kills if it's a 2 healed fight. We've done so for the first 7 Heroic bosses so far and Disc can more than hold their ground.

    I'm actually not so sure I agree with XyroN about Disc/Hpala comp but I haven't been using a Hpala in our setup this Tier, so could be I'm wrong. But with the nerf to EF and not being able to put absorbs on the entire raid, seems like a fair nerf imo. I know the Hpala we had last Tier (social now) complained how bad Hpala are doing now compared to last Tier.

    In terms of throughput and utility, I'd bring a Druid or a Monk over a Hpala now and coupled with a Disc it's really strong. But going Druid/Monk on say Heroic Galakras is not something I'd wanna do tbh. Shell+Barrier in the last phase is just god mode. I mean, you can't just look at throughput. As XyroN says, utility plays such a large role and in 10 man where you don't have a lot of raid walls, having the right ones can make the whole difference. Synergy is another thing I'd like to mention.
    I'm not saying disc is terrible, in fact I said I think they're good for 10s. Atonement and shields are both valuable and disc probably has the best tank saving burst (short of emergency cooldowns). It's also quite mobile (though I pretty much find Glyph of Pennance to be mandatory, at this point). But using your own example, the shaman kit completely smashes disc on Galakras and druids easily match it. Sure, you can preload shields and reduce damage with barrier, but your probably just blocking damage that the shaman or druid would have healed anyway (and I wouldn't really call the 20 seconds shields and barrier buys you "God Mode" compared to the shaman doing 1.5 to 2 times your output).

    I've seen a number of people post here (not this thread specifically) that "disc is competitive" because they managed to keep up with other healers. Then you look at the numbers and find out its a disc priest operating in the 85th percentile comparing himself to a shaman in the 50th. Disc "snipes" other healers, which means it always looks better on the meters than it is until there's too much to heal. Aside from Malkorok, I very rarely find myself looking for my single-target direct healing buttons and PoH is nearly useless outside of SS. In any situation where I might have found myself using those abilities in previous tiers, I just shrug, hit the boss with pennance or look for someone worth putting a shield on and let the other healers handle it.

    I think our utility is enough to make us valuable in 10s, but I wouldn't pick disc over another healer for 25s on the merits of spec. And when including them, you should understand and plan for the fact that they trade raw output for utility. Atonement can't really be free of cost or no one would run without disc and I understand that, but I think they've made a minor mistake in how that's balanced. If I were looking at a particularly hard healing fight and not considering the damage component of atonement, I definitely wouldn't go for disc. And if anyone doesn't think atonement damage is the biggest reason to bring disc, you can validate this by the number of disc priests using Yu-Lon's cloak.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Without knowing what context you've seen the healing classes in action in, I can tell you that we almost always prio our Disc for progress kills if it's a 2 healed fight. We've done so for the first 7 Heroic bosses so far and Disc can more than hold their ground.

    I'm actually not so sure I agree with XyroN about Disc/Hpala comp but I haven't been using a Hpala in our setup this Tier, so could be I'm wrong. But with the nerf to EF and not being able to put absorbs on the entire raid, seems like a fair nerf imo. I know the Hpala we had last Tier (social now) complained how bad Hpala are doing now compared to last Tier.

    In terms of throughput and utility, I'd bring a Druid or a Monk over a Hpala now and coupled with a Disc it's really strong. But going Druid/Monk on say Heroic Galakras is not something I'd wanna do tbh. Shell+Barrier in the last phase is just god mode. I mean, you can't just look at throughput. As XyroN says, utility plays such a large role and in 10 man where you don't have a lot of raid walls, having the right ones can make the whole difference. Synergy is another thing I'd like to mention.
    the nerf to EF wasnt a over all nerf. they removed the mastery from being applied by the hot ticks, but if i remember correctly they buffed the output of EF. also the changes to selfless healer say hello. anecdotal is anecdotal but my guild runs usually atleast 1 hpally per 10man group and usually 2-3 of us in 25s/flex depending on attendance. i cant speak for everyone but at ~535 ilvl i do pretty decent healing imo. HPS/raw output is not all there is to healing, im not that great but am usually anywhere between 75-90k hps on most fights so far in SoO, and my other pally friend does way better then i do.

  3. #23
    Fluffy Kitten Siri's Avatar
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    I think you're greatly underestimating the strength of disc priests in 25mans. The fact that Divine Star and Halo doesn't get reduced by hitting more than 6 targets make them fairly insane healing when you can utilize them well (which happens to be most of the time).

    If you can hit a fully stacked up raid with Divine Star, disc just might be the best healer in 25s

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    I think our utility is enough to make us valuable in 10s, but I wouldn't pick disc over another healer for 25s on the merits of spec. And when including them, you should understand and plan for the fact that they trade raw output for utility. Atonement can't really be free of cost or no one would run without disc and I understand that, but I think they've made a minor mistake in how that's balanced. If I were looking at a particularly hard healing fight and not considering the damage component of atonement, I definitely wouldn't go for disc. And if anyone doesn't think atonement damage is the biggest reason to bring disc, you can validate this by the number of disc priests using Yu-Lon's cloak.
    Disc's aren't using Yu'lons because it does damage which is something people value disc on - they're using Yu'lons because the fact that it has crit/mastery/haste instead of spirit/mastery/haste is already an equal increase to the +5% healing you get under the proc, and the proc usually does about 0.5-2% healing in the best of scenarios, because of how disc heals (extremely low overhealing due to no big crits, most healing is smart healing or not actual heal cos absorbs). 0.5% of 200K hps is 1K HPS... Vs the 600 extra crit rating / Yu Lon's proc.

    Really, even if they nerfed Yu'Lons proc rate to half of its current, I doubt I'd switch to the healing cloak.

  5. #25
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by makominami View Post
    Shy away from priests in all roles atm , they have fallen to bottom.
    No they haven't. The last minute overbuffing of Divine Star and Halo stopped that from happening.

    http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...Orgrimmar/hps/

    There is one class you barely see in the top 10 on 25m, and it is not priests.

  6. #26
    Mechagnome Naer's Avatar
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    I am disc and did perfectly fine in 25m Normal, even undergeared compared to the rest of my team. We start heroics next week, but I don't imagine I'll struggle anymore than anyone else (except maybe on Malkorok, but ... well, that's to be a bit expected)

    The lack of DR on priest level 90 talents, the insane achievable uptime on ToF (whenever you heal or damage below 35% on an add heavy tier = heaven for uptime). I easily see 50-60% uptime on ToF, and Divine Star when stacked is capable of competing with Healing Rain when you factor in the DA generated and the fact that I can "refresh" my DA with DS.

    I wouldn't shy away from a well played priest.

    OP: If I understand you correctly, you're planning on going up to 25m? If so we have the Pally focus the tanks generally, but on really tank heavy fights him and I both watch them. The absorbs are fairly handy at making a joke of tank damage this tier (which is NOT easy, I might add). Our tanks seemed to stay up fairly easily on Garrosh between me and the Pally. I am lucky enough to be able to stack grace on the tank, PW: Shield and perhaps even Inner Focus + Greater heal for DA and then go back to raid healing.

  7. #27
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    I'm not saying disc is terrible, in fact I said I think they're good for 10s. Atonement and shields are both valuable and disc probably has the best tank saving burst (short of emergency cooldowns). It's also quite mobile (though I pretty much find Glyph of Pennance to be mandatory, at this point). But using your own example, the shaman kit completely smashes disc on Galakras and druids easily match it. Sure, you can preload shields and reduce damage with barrier, but your probably just blocking damage that the shaman or druid would have healed anyway (and I wouldn't really call the 20 seconds shields and barrier buys you "God Mode" compared to the shaman doing 1.5 to 2 times your output).

    I've seen a number of people post here (not this thread specifically) that "disc is competitive" because they managed to keep up with other healers. Then you look at the numbers and find out its a disc priest operating in the 85th percentile comparing himself to a shaman in the 50th. Disc "snipes" other healers, which means it always looks better on the meters than it is until there's too much to heal. Aside from Malkorok, I very rarely find myself looking for my single-target direct healing buttons and PoH is nearly useless outside of SS. In any situation where I might have found myself using those abilities in previous tiers, I just shrug, hit the boss with pennance or look for someone worth putting a shield on and let the other healers handle it.

    I think our utility is enough to make us valuable in 10s, but I wouldn't pick disc over another healer for 25s on the merits of spec. And when including them, you should understand and plan for the fact that they trade raw output for utility. Atonement can't really be free of cost or no one would run without disc and I understand that, but I think they've made a minor mistake in how that's balanced. If I were looking at a particularly hard healing fight and not considering the damage component of atonement, I definitely wouldn't go for disc. And if anyone doesn't think atonement damage is the biggest reason to bring disc, you can validate this by the number of disc priests using Yu-Lon's cloak.

    You keep talking about raw output and pure numbers, as if that's the only thing that matters in a raid. We haven't had a full time Resto Shaman since mid Tier 15, but I have heard they've gotten some nice buffs. I'm not saying that any healer isn't viable, cause Imo they all are. And while a Resto Shaman might outshine a Disc Priest on say Heroic Galakras last phase, it still doesn't mean that a Disc can't do it. And yes, I do think that Barrier + Spirit Shell is god mode for almost every fight.

    Again, I'd focus more about synergy than "Who has the better output on paper". If I had room in my roster to our former Hpala, I'd take him in as well. I've never believed that a healer is completely useless, although Resto Shamans probably were somewhat close last Tier. That said we had to use our Ele as Resto, when we needed to 3 heal - Megaera Heroic in the beginning and again, bosses died. So call it anecdotal but it's like some people look at numbers alone and then decide based on that.

    Remember Lei Shi? Well even the crap Shamans had a good use on that fight. Running while healing and the Druid who could then Symbiosis him and get running Tranq, that's what I mean when I'm talking synergy.

  8. #28
    Just tossing in my note that druids are doing very well now. I play one and we got a number of buffs. Shrooms that can be moved around and not lose their charge coupled with being able to tie efflorescence into them basically make them a mini CD that has no CD and a short charge. Additionally genesis helps with burst healing on a few targets. HotW and NV both got a buff and SotF continues to make WG extremely powerful.

    Signature Created by Jassinta

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    disc probably has the best tank saving burst (short of emergency cooldowns). But using your own example, the shaman kit completely smashes disc on Galakras and druids easily match it. Sure, you can preload shields and reduce damage with barrier, but your probably just blocking damage that the shaman or druid would have healed anyway (and I wouldn't really call the 20 seconds shields and barrier buys you "God Mode" compared to the shaman doing 1.5 to 2 times your output).
    Disc is actually quite awful single target if you compare it without "emergency cooldowns" (pain sup).
    Barrier is actually close to twice as good as any other cooldown http://healiocentric.wordpress.com/2...owns-overview/ , If youa re able to fit an entire 25man inside of it... it is in fact 'god mode'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    I've seen a number of people post here (not this thread specifically) that "disc is competitive" because they managed to keep up with other healers. In any situation where I might have found myself using those abilities in previous tiers, I just shrug, hit the boss with pennance or look for someone worth putting a shield on and let the other healers handle it.
    Sustained damage is not high enough in most fights for the cap on raw output to be relevant. Absorbtion/DA is our mechanic for the class, it is integral to the spec. Do you say the same about a HPal in your raid? just sniping heals?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    I wouldn't pick disc over another healer for 25s on the merits of spec.
    That's nice. Unfortunatley the best guilds in the world seem to think differently. Currently disc holds top 10 ranks on every heroic fight which has logs up. Logs are a bit buggy and not everyfight is up though. Disc holds top10 ranks for 11/14 normal fights. If you extend this to top25 for each fight it includes every fight but Malkorok (for obvious reasons).


    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    And when including them, you should understand and plan for the fact that they trade raw output for utility.
    Raw output (overheal) you dont need vs gamechanging utility. Seems a tough call.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    And if anyone doesn't think atonement damage is the biggest reason to bring disc, you can validate this by the number of disc priests using Yu-Lon's cloak.
    facepalmmed so hard
    Last edited by Docta; 2013-09-30 at 07:33 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    He's not entirely wrong. Disc has the worst available throughput in the game. DPS and shielding abilities still make them worth having in 10 man, in my opinion, but they really aren't effective in 25. Holy is kind of the reverse. Better throughput that really comes out in 25s, but not particularly helpful to a 10 man that has either resto spec available.
    Sadly the logs are private so I can't link them, but the 2 priests currently raiding with Unhuman (US 8) in 25 are simply dominating, and from the numbers I've done, I had no issue at all as disc to top the meter, the T90 talents are just too good.

    Not saying it is the same for every guild, but I really don't see any issues with disc priests so far this tier. I see some on my monk, and tons of those, like I'm working twice as hard to do less than I could do on my priest.

    Only issue disc have is realy the legendary cloak procs... this is beyond bad for us.
    Macphisto, discipline priest | Karuzo, mistweaver monk

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    I think you're greatly underestimating the strength of disc priests in 25mans. The fact that Divine Star and Halo doesn't get reduced by hitting more than 6 targets make them fairly insane healing when you can utilize them well (which happens to be most of the time).

    If you can hit a fully stacked up raid with Divine Star, disc just might be the best healer in 25s
    After reviewing some of the numbers more closely, I believe you're correct and disc is doing considerably better in 25s than I thought. Still not anything competitive with druids, shamans, monks or holy priests in terms of throughput, but it looks like we're matching holy paladins and considerably higher than I expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Disc's aren't using Yu'lons because it does damage which is something people value disc on - they're using Yu'lons because the fact that it has crit/mastery/haste instead of spirit/mastery/haste is already an equal increase to the +5% healing you get under the proc, and the proc usually does about 0.5-2% healing in the best of scenarios, because of how disc heals (extremely low overhealing due to no big crits, most healing is smart healing or not actual heal cos absorbs). 0.5% of 200K hps is 1K HPS... Vs the 600 extra crit rating / Yu Lon's proc.

    Really, even if they nerfed Yu'Lons proc rate to half of its current, I doubt I'd switch to the healing cloak.
    The reason to take Yu-Lon's cloak is entirely about damage. Spirit of Chi-Ji is more often around 2.5-3% of healing done for priests who keep the healer cloak and looking through top parses, it's very rare to find a top parse without it. 600 crit rating is 1% crit, at least some portion of which will be lost to overheal/unconsumed shields. It's a very clear cut HPS loss to use the DPS cloak.

    Assuming the cloak accounts for a 2.5% increase to healing done, if I switched the DPS cloak back to the healer cloak on Malkorok, I'd gain approximately 837,500 healing over the course of the fight. I might regain as much as 335,000 of this from the crit rating (assuming it is 100% effective, which of course is far too generous). I'm trading that 500,000+ healing for the 2.1 million damage the DPS cloak did, plain and simple. Using the same assumptions for Iron Juggernaut, I gave up 630,000 healing over the course of the fight for 2.4 million damage. This is a smaller example of the reason disc is good for 10s, in my opinion. Unneeded healing can be translated into damage on demand. And that's the ONLY reason to use Yu-Lon's cloak, because it is always an HPS loss to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    You keep talking about raw output and pure numbers, as if that's the only thing that matters in a raid. We haven't had a full time Resto Shaman since mid Tier 15, but I have heard they've gotten some nice buffs. I'm not saying that any healer isn't viable, cause Imo they all are. And while a Resto Shaman might outshine a Disc Priest on say Heroic Galakras last phase, it still doesn't mean that a Disc can't do it. And yes, I do think that Barrier + Spirit Shell is god mode for almost every fight.
    The only way to get that impression from my post is to ignore the half of it I spent talking about our utility and the fact that I said in pretty clear terms that disc has a valuable role to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Again, I'd focus more about synergy than "Who has the better output on paper". If I had room in my roster to our former Hpala, I'd take him in as well. I've never believed that a healer is completely useless, although Resto Shamans probably were somewhat close last Tier. That said we had to use our Ele as Resto, when we needed to 3 heal - Megaera Heroic in the beginning and again, bosses died. So call it anecdotal but it's like some people look at numbers alone and then decide based on that.
    I didn't say anything about "output on paper" and none of this is theoretical. I'm talking about actual output numbers within the game, not abstract mathematics (though those are frequently one and the same, anyway).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Docta View Post
    Disc is actually quite awful single target if you compare it without "emergency cooldowns" (pain sup).
    Since I said "disc is the best single target healer" I can see why you responded as you did, here. Oh wait, that wasn't even remotely what I said. The instant effectiveness of PW:S plus Pennance is not something any other healer can match without prior setup (swiftmend) or cooldowns (nature's switfness) or emergency buttons (LoH, life cocoon, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Docta View Post
    Barrier is actually close to twice as good as any other cooldown http://healiocentric.wordpress.com/2...owns-overview/ , If youa re able to fit an entire 25man inside of it... it is in fact 'god mode'.
    This is the very first part of the conclusions section of the article you linked:
    The newly rebalanced healing cooldowns are actually pretty well matched to their damage reduction counterparts. For example, Power Word: Barrier mitigates 7.35 million damage during 25-player Heroic Iron Qon’s Fist Smash #8, while Divine Hymn would deliver up to 8.09 million healing.
    7.35 million is twice as much as 8.09 million? Which alternate universe are we discussing here, because I think I'm lost. Yes, damage avoided is better than damaged healed, I agree. But twice as good? Color me unconvinced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Docta View Post
    Sustained damage is not high enough in most fights for the cap on raw output to be relevant.
    For the most part, I agree with this statement. However, this does not equate to good design or mean that all healers are on the same footing. These inequalities matter to the game at levels other than world-first-heroic progression. If an under-geared druid can heal a fight that an equally under-geared monk can't handle, I believe that's a problem. The same is true, in my opinion, when you substitute skill and gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Docta View Post
    Absorbtion/DA is our mechanic for the class, it is integral to the spec. Do you say the same about a HPal in your raid? just sniping heals?
    The holy paladin is not spamming smart heals the way atonement does, nor is he able to shift healing from low-damage-times to more intense times, which is how spirit shell works. Most of a holy paladin's absorbs are incidental and a result of healing done. Illuminated Healing matches up almost exactly with Divine Aegis, but the comparison falls apart if you try to apply it to PW:S, Atonement or Spirit Shell. In times of low healing requirements, other healers must work overtime to do what disc does with very little effort and this inflates our position on the meter (and in the logs). That's what I mean by "sniping" in this context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Docta View Post
    If you extend this to top25 for each fight it includes every fight but Malkorok (for obvious reasons).
    Are those obvious reasons that our throughput is lower and when everyone gets to put pre-emptive shields on the raid it makes this glaringly obvious? Well, as long as we're in agreement, then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Docta View Post
    Raw output (overheal) you dont need vs gamechanging utility. Seems a tough call.
    Just because YOU don't need it doesn't mean someone else doesn't need it. The only way throughput is irrelevant is if healing requirements are under-tuned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Docta View Post
    facepalmmed so hard
    Your virtual action has left me flabbergasted and dumbfounded by the concise and clearly infallible logic it contains. I'm glad I could provide you with some amusement, but perhaps you should try answering with a rational argument instead of insulting condescension.

  12. #32
    Remember those times when you had a holy pally spam the tanks the entire fight? It doesn't work like that anymore. With beacon, smart heals, and tanks' current tools, everyone throws something on the tanks once in a while and they just stay alive.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post


    The reason to take Yu-Lon's cloak is entirely about damage. Spirit of Chi-Ji is more often around 2.5-3% of healing done for priests who keep the healer cloak and looking through top parses, it's very rare to find a top parse without it. 600 crit rating is 1% crit, at least some portion of which will be lost to overheal/unconsumed shields. It's a very clear cut HPS loss to use the DPS cloak.

    Assuming the cloak accounts for a 2.5% increase to healing done, if I switched the DPS cloak back to the healer cloak on Malkorok, I'd gain approximately 837,500 healing over the course of the fight. I might regain as much as 335,000 of this from the crit rating (assuming it is 100% effective, which of course is far too generous). I'm trading that 500,000+ healing for the 2.1 million damage the DPS cloak did, plain and simple. Using the same assumptions for Iron Juggernaut, I gave up 630,000 healing over the course of the fight for 2.4 million damage. This is a smaller example of the reason disc is good for 10s, in my opinion. Unneeded healing can be translated into damage on demand. And that's the ONLY reason to use Yu-Lon's cloak, because it is always an HPS loss to do so.
    Not really. 2.5% healing is insanely high, and there's a reason those parses are the "top"-ones - they are hit with good fortune. If the cloak procs while no damage is going out, it's going to be completly wasted. 2.5% is the exception, not the rule -the 0.5-1% assumption is pretty damn correct.
    As for crit being largely overheal, the same goes for the cloak, but you neglect that - you assume it's 2.5% healing. Note that Malkorok is a really shitty fight for cloaks either way due to no overhealing (absorbs) and smart healing being distributed to the same targets), but I understand what you intend to relay with the example.
    In the end, it probably will be an extremely minor HPS loss to not use the cloak, but that's to be expected - after all, it IS the healing "legendary".
    Either way, with the way it works for disc, I'd much rather use the Yu'lon cloak for every single aspect of progress. You are downplaying the amount of damage it adds significantly, too - 2.1M on malkorok is pretty damn laughable, mine contributed 8.5M this reset. Likewise, I did 270K hps - even assuming the cloak "worked" and gave me 2.5% healing increase through the proc (assuming the 5% buff/.5% of it is outweighted by the crit), that's 5.4K hps traded for 23.5K dps. As the cloak is closer to a 1% healing increase in general, its just... Never worth it. It won't ever provide you with any life-saving healing. Heck, it's far worse in 10 mans than it is in 25 mans, because atleast on 25, the uncapped lvl 90 talents have a chance at giving you SOME overhealing when it procs.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post


    This is the very first part of the conclusions section of the article you linked:

    7.35 million is twice as much as 8.09 million? Which alternate universe are we discussing here, because I think I'm lost. Yes, damage avoided is better than damaged healed, I agree. But twice as good? Color me unconvinced.
    Damage reductions impact on raid effective health is VERY significant. It can allow you to take otherwise unhealable/1shot damage that no healing could prevent, and reduce the overall healing required for sustained. Barrier also can't overheal and only takes one global.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    For the most part, I agree with this statement. However, this does not equate to good design or mean that all healers are on the same footing. These inequalities matter to the game at levels other than world-first-heroic progression. If an under-geared druid can heal a fight that an equally under-geared monk can't handle, I believe that's a problem. The same is true, in my opinion, when you substitute skill and gear.

    The holy paladin is not spamming smart heals the way atonement does, nor is he able to shift healing from low-damage-times to more intense times, which is how spirit shell works. Most of a holy paladin's absorbs are incidental and a result of healing done. Illuminated Healing matches up almost exactly with Divine Aegis, but the comparison falls apart if you try to apply it to PW:S, Atonement or Spirit Shell. In times of low healing requirements, other healers must work overtime to do what disc does with very little effort and this inflates our position on the meter (and in the logs). That's what I mean by "sniping" in this context.
    This seems more personal feelings about design than anything else. The context of this post is the OP expanding his raid team to 10 -> 25 and the current state of healers is that he should take the best players he can find, we are all viable and it is largely up to the player behind the class. Do you really think that disc is not viable for 25m?


    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    Are those obvious reasons that our throughput is lower and when everyone gets to put pre-emptive shields on the raid it makes this glaringly obvious? Well, as long as we're in agreement, then.
    Actually world of logs was just bugging out earlier; You can check it out now http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...korok/25H/hps/
    ranks #26 & #27 are Disc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    Just because YOU don't need it doesn't mean someone else doesn't need it. The only way throughput is irrelevant is if healing requirements are under-tuned.
    The throughput lost from bringing a disc over another healer is really not very high in practice; very few fights is this even visible due to damage patterns & being able to predict damage with absorbs. Absorbs (more effective health) hold great synergy with other healers & to not even consider for a 25m based on the "merits of the spec" is silly. I don't know why you seem to think disc is so far behind, lvl 90 spells in 25m are exceedingly good, like a mini raid cooldown.
    Last edited by Docta; 2013-10-01 at 07:21 AM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Docta View Post
    Actually world of logs was just bugging out earlier; You can check it out now http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...korok/25H/hps/
    ranks #26 & #27 are Disc.
    I will have a more complete response later, when I have more time, but I see a druid and a holy priest in the positions you reference. The first disc priest on the list is from China, and he's at 66% of the Chinese monk in first place (275k vs 414k). Still bugged perhaps, but I don't see what you're claiming, at all.

  16. #36
    The logs are bugged still. Can't use them as any kind of reference. I'm not even on there for disc priests, yet I did 270K hps as disc this reset (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r.../?s=761&e=1121) which according to the logs would be rank 2. So, completly bugged out still. Can't gauge anything off of the heroic logs I'm afraid.

  17. #37
    My point is that Disc is competitive even on malkorok which has a mechanic giving everyone absorbs, there are logs of multiple US disc priests that don't have inflated ilvl doing 320+
    Last edited by Docta; 2013-10-01 at 09:31 AM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Not really. 2.5% healing is insanely high, and there's a reason those parses are the "top"-ones - they are hit with good fortune. If the cloak procs while no damage is going out, it's going to be completly wasted. 2.5% is the exception, not the rule -the 0.5-1% assumption is pretty damn correct.
    As for crit being largely overheal, the same goes for the cloak, but you neglect that - you assume it's 2.5% healing. Note that Malkorok is a really shitty fight for cloaks either way due to no overhealing (absorbs) and smart healing being distributed to the same targets), but I understand what you intend to relay with the example.
    In the end, it probably will be an extremely minor HPS loss to not use the cloak, but that's to be expected - after all, it IS the healing "legendary".
    Either way, with the way it works for disc, I'd much rather use the Yu'lon cloak for every single aspect of progress. You are downplaying the amount of damage it adds significantly, too - 2.1M on malkorok is pretty damn laughable, mine contributed 8.5M this reset. Likewise, I did 270K hps - even assuming the cloak "worked" and gave me 2.5% healing increase through the proc (assuming the 5% buff/.5% of it is outweighted by the crit), that's 5.4K hps traded for 23.5K dps. As the cloak is closer to a 1% healing increase in general, its just... Never worth it. It won't ever provide you with any life-saving healing. Heck, it's far worse in 10 mans than it is in 25 mans, because atleast on 25, the uncapped lvl 90 talents have a chance at giving you SOME overhealing when it procs.
    You're way, way off on the amount of healing the cloak does and the comparison I gave was highly favorable to your assertion that the 600 crit rating was worth more than the legendary proc. I counted it as a full 1% which is far too high for reality, whereas we're comparing actual logs of the cloak (which are frequently around 3% and I have seen some over 6%). That doesn't even count the extra 5% boost the cloak adds while the buff is active. As for the damage comparison, my number is from 10 man normal where the boss has approximately 1/5th the total health. The plain fact of the matter is that there is only one reason to use the DPS cloak and despite your earlier assertion, it's not to increase your healing with better itemization (because it absolutely doesn't).

    Quote Originally Posted by Docta View Post
    Damage reductions impact on raid effective health is VERY significant. It can allow you to take otherwise unhealable/1shot damage that no healing could prevent, and reduce the overall healing required for sustained. Barrier also can't overheal and only takes one global.

    This seems more personal feelings about design than anything else. The context of this post is the OP expanding his raid team to 10 -> 25 and the current state of healers is that he should take the best players he can find, we are all viable and it is largely up to the player behind the class. Do you really think that disc is not viable for 25m?

    Actually world of logs was just bugging out earlier; You can check it out now http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...korok/25H/hps/
    ranks #26 & #27 are Disc.

    The throughput lost from bringing a disc over another healer is really not very high in practice; very few fights is this even visible due to damage patterns & being able to predict damage with absorbs. Absorbs (more effective health) hold great synergy with other healers & to not even consider for a 25m based on the "merits of the spec" is silly. I don't know why you seem to think disc is so far behind, lvl 90 spells in 25m are exceedingly good, like a mini raid cooldown.
    I'm not undervaluing damage reductions, but you claimed PW:B was worth twice what any other raid cooldown was worth and even the article you linked to support that statement flat-out disagrees with you. It's worth about the same and perhaps slightly more in ideal circumstances (divine hymn and tranquility do not require a stacked raid) and worth much less when those circumstances aren't so ideal (hymn or tranq might just save your raid while you're spread out, but PW:B isn't going to help much). And just because it "can't overheal" (because it doesn't heal) doesn't mean it can't be wasted just as easily as healing can.

    As stated above, I've had my eyes opened to disc's potential in 25s and it's higher than I thought. It's still not competing with the top level of throughput, but maybe the other utility there is enough to keep them viable. I still don't see them as a necessary part of success in 25s and would absolutely consider a second resto druid more useful to the raid (all things being equal, of course). I agree that player skill is the deciding factor, but that's pretty much always been true. Even in the last tier, a good restoration shaman was able to out-heal a bad discipline priest. I didn't say the sky is falling, just that I wouldn't say discipline are the best healers (for actual healing abilities) in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Docta View Post
    My point is that Disc is competitive even on malkorok which has a mechanic giving everyone absorbs, there are logs of multiple US disc priests that don't have inflated ilvl doing 320+
    And my point is that you're wrong. Disc is absolutely not "competitive" on Malkorok unless you're comparing a very skilled and/or well-geared disc priest to another healer who is not. 10 normal top ranked disc priest is not even in the top 500. 10 heroic top ranked disc priest is #64. 25 normal top ranked disc priest is #77. Sure, the disc priest on 25 heroic is at 37, but the gap between him and the top is massive and he's really only at 37 because of the low number of encounters logged. 25 heroic logs wont have enough data to establish anything empirical for a while.

    This is one fight and not being in the top parses for one fight is not a big deal. However, this fight offers the best test of available throughput which is indicative, in my opinion, of other things. 25 heroic logs are worth even less on this fight as there is a great probability they have more than enough bandwidth to handle the healing requirements, which as I have already pointed out tends to inflate disc's position on the meter. The logs that result in wipes due to lack of HPS would be far more significant, but I don't have a convenient way to tabulate those.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    And my point is that you're wrong. Disc is absolutely not "competitive" on Malkorok unless you're comparing a very skilled and/or well-geared disc priest to another healer who is not. 10 normal top ranked disc priest is not even in the top 500. 10 heroic top ranked disc priest is #64. 25 normal top ranked disc priest is #77. Sure, the disc priest on 25 heroic is at 37, but the gap between him and the top is massive and he's really only at 37 because of the low number of encounters logged. 25 heroic logs wont have enough data to establish anything empirical for a while.
    Nice wall of text, I'm going to take a moment of my time to say that it doesn't matter how nicely structured your post is when you don't understand the fight you're discussing. Malkorok is all about spot healing outside of rage phases, and the fact shields are additive on top of Ancient Miasma is absolutely incredible and without a doubt puts disc up there among the best for the fight.
    old mistweaver probably still better than u

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Nice wall of text, I'm going to take a moment of my time to say that it doesn't matter how nicely structured your post is when you don't understand the fight you're discussing. Malkorok is all about spot healing outside of rage phases, and the fact shields are additive on top of Ancient Miasma is absolutely incredible and without a doubt puts disc up there among the best for the fight.
    Nice job reading the entire thread.

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