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  1. #1

    I just realized the horror of Paragons on LFR...

    Many of us have been struggling on Nazgrim on LFR, right?

    now, imagine having to fight 9 miniature nazgrims, each similar in complexity to the real thing, with 3 of them up at the same time, and the entire fight lasting 3X as long... and that with an unorganized and often underperforming group.

    I think it'll be hell. or will they adapt it to the average skill level of the LFR player?
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by nzall View Post
    Many of us have been struggling on Nazgrim on LFR, right?

    now, imagine having to fight 9 miniature nazgrims, each similar in complexity to the real thing, with 3 of them up at the same time, and the entire fight lasting 3X as long... and that with an unorganized and often underperforming group.

    I think it'll be hell. or will they adapt it to the average skill level of the LFR player?
    Given the mechanics that have stayed on bosses this tier I'm going to assume this fight will suck. After doing wing 2 once, I'm done with LFR forever. I'll just run flex and normal/heroic. I suggest you do the same.

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  3. #3
    Herald of the Titans Bigbazz's Avatar
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    The problem with LFR is that it's way overtuned for a LFR group in ilvl496, people are genuinely expecting over 100k dps from people who have the gear to put out maybe 65-80k in ideal conditions, this isn't perfectly optimised and catered to the class Ilvl496 it is often badly optimised, often ungemmed and unenchanted and often including 3 stat timeless items that aren't much better than ilvl463 5man gear. You take a player with timeless 496 3 stat items with the wrong stats, no reforging, enchants, gemms and screwed up hit/exp caps and you will be lucky if you see them going above 70k dps even if they are a superhero of a player.

    The issue with LFR is that it is just overtuned for the entry requirements. Wing 1 is easy and so for the most part doesn't cause much issue, but wing 2 is much harder and the only reason most groups get through is because of overgeared people outweighing the undergeared. And yeah, it's only going to get much much worse further on in the instance.

    The Ilvl requirement needs to be raised, because timeless 496 gear is often absolutely horrid.
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  4. #4
    Ironically, I'm afraid of LFR Spoils.

    I hope the boxes open automatically at a time frame or something, if you trust people to open them... it's gonna be a nightmare.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Gihelle View Post
    Ironically, I'm afraid of LFR Spoils.

    I hope the boxes open automatically at a time frame or something, if you trust people to open them... it's gonna be a nightmare.
    Thok lfr.. every healer spamming long aoe cast heals;D;D

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    The problem with LFR is that it's way overtuned for a LFR group in ilvl496, people are genuinely expecting over 100k dps from people who have the gear to put out maybe 65-80k in ideal conditions, this isn't perfectly optimised and catered to the class Ilvl496 it is often badly optimised, often ungemmed and unenchanted and often including 3 stat timeless items that aren't much better than ilvl463 5man gear. You take a player with timeless 496 3 stat items with the wrong stats, no reforging, enchants, gemms and screwed up hit/exp caps and you will be lucky if you see them going above 70k dps even if they are a superhero of a player.

    The issue with LFR is that it is just overtuned for the entry requirements. Wing 1 is easy and so for the most part doesn't cause much issue, but wing 2 is much harder and the only reason most groups get through is because of overgeared people outweighing the undergeared. And yeah, it's only going to get much much worse further on in the instance.

    The Ilvl requirement needs to be raised, because timeless 496 gear is often absolutely horrid.
    Err, you do 80k dps in 470-475 gear. You do 110-120k in 496. At least that's been my experience with single target fights with no damage buffs/debuffs. LFR was tuned on the PTR where everyone's ilvl was forcibly set to 496.

    As for paragons themselves, I figure they'll be about as hard as the council of elders in ToT (not hard.) The difficulty of council fights are the vast array of abilities they have, but those spells can't be very deadly in LFR mode so you end up with them being more or less ignorable. As long as you have one guy with half a brain marking kill targets, you should be fine.

    I personally envision more issues on Thok with people leading the dino through a clumped up raid. Chomp chomp chomp.

  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Galm's Avatar
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    Blizzard will probably just dumb it down my simply removing all complications, like they did with Elegon removing Overcharged and the link between the pylons in LFR.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    The problem with LFR is that it's way overtuned for a LFR group in ilvl496, people are genuinely expecting over 100k dps from people who have the gear to put out maybe 65-80k in ideal conditions, this isn't perfectly optimised and catered to the class Ilvl496 it is often badly optimised, often ungemmed and unenchanted and often including 3 stat timeless items that aren't much better than ilvl463 5man gear. You take a player with timeless 496 3 stat items with the wrong stats, no reforging, enchants, gemms and screwed up hit/exp caps and you will be lucky if you see them going above 70k dps even if they are a superhero of a player.

    The issue with LFR is that it is just overtuned for the entry requirements. Wing 1 is easy and so for the most part doesn't cause much issue, but wing 2 is much harder and the only reason most groups get through is because of overgeared people outweighing the undergeared. And yeah, it's only going to get much much worse further on in the instance.

    The Ilvl requirement needs to be raised, because timeless 496 gear is often absolutely horrid.

    No it is not. 496 is more than sufficient to do SoO LFR.

    Problem is that LFR encourages people to be lazy because there'll be someone else there to pick up the slack and carry them to the purples that they deserve for paying $15 a month. Who runs lfr that has NEVER seen someone deliberately run into a kill move just so they can die and afk sammich while others do the job...then rage about how the loot system is rubbish and they got nothing.
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  9. #9
    Pandaren Monk Redpanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    Given the mechanics that have stayed on bosses this tier I'm going to assume this fight will suck. After doing wing 2 once, I'm done with LFR forever. I'll just run flex and normal/heroic. I suggest you do the same.
    this X10. Im not motivated enough I have the real raid and flex and thats enough for me to tolerate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    People doing below 200k dps? Ain't nobody got time for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    Why? Why should content be gated behind skill?
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  10. #10
    I am Murloc! Thelxi's Avatar
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    I don't understand Blizzard's PoV with LFR lately. It is very obvious they are trying to push people into being better "raiders" with how they tuned and left many normal/heroic mechanics untouched in LFR this tier and also last tier's Lei Shen. They are also clearly pushing people into flex by making LFR gear so low ilvl that most of it aren't even upgrades for many casuals and alts.

    I just don't understand what is in it for Blizzard. People have already gotten much better on average over the years without Blizzard pushing things so hard. What is the point of everybody being better at the game? in the end there will always better and worse players with just the ceiling rising. Not to mention the carrot that is barely even there anymore.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by nzall View Post
    Many of us have been struggling on Nazgrim on LFR, right?

    now, imagine having to fight 9 miniature nazgrims, each similar in complexity to the real thing, with 3 of them up at the same time, and the entire fight lasting 3X as long... and that with an unorganized and often underperforming group.

    I think it'll be hell. or will they adapt it to the average skill level of the LFR player?
    Considering every mechanic on paragons can be ignored in normal I expect the same is true for LFR. I am more worried about idiots opening all the boxes on spoils or thok chomping the entire raid. I will only run flex if I need anything on my first and second alt, for all the other alts and main it is flex all the way. I suggest you do the same. Flex>LFR on every level.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    The problem with LFR is that it's way overtuned for a LFR group in ilvl496, people are genuinely expecting over 100k dps from people who have the gear to put out maybe 65-80k in ideal conditions, this isn't perfectly optimised and catered to the class Ilvl496 it is often badly optimised, often ungemmed and unenchanted and often including 3 stat timeless items that aren't much better than ilvl463 5man gear. You take a player with timeless 496 3 stat items with the wrong stats, no reforging, enchants, gemms and screwed up hit/exp caps and you will be lucky if you see them going above 70k dps even if they are a superhero of a player.

    The issue with LFR is that it is just overtuned for the entry requirements. Wing 1 is easy and so for the most part doesn't cause much issue, but wing 2 is much harder and the only reason most groups get through is because of overgeared people outweighing the undergeared. And yeah, it's only going to get much much worse further on in the instance.

    The Ilvl requirement needs to be raised, because timeless 496 gear is often absolutely horrid.
    I expect 60-80k. If someone can't do that, they shouldn't be in SoO LFR. I think you're right in that they can get there with the Timeless gear and a bit more (the 522 neck from SPA, etc), but the weak spot is a weapon for some classes. Yes, they have 496, but their weapon is 450-476.

    However, 30-50K is simply unacceptable, even given all that, from a DPS class. I see locks and mages and rogues and hunters doing that and it's just wrong. I was doing 40k in 460 gear while messing around. With 35-40 more ilevels they should be close to double of that. But it's not going to change so I'll Flex raid on Openraid, get better gear, spend less time and have a better experience.

    What will happen to the people who can't bother to gem, enchant, reforge or spend any time figuring out the basics of how to play their class? Don't know. Don't care.

  13. #13
    Dreadlord Angrybathtub's Avatar
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    Some bosses are close to unkillable without a good amount of determination stacks. We had dps doing 45k with 6 stacks of determination! That's a 30% dmg increase.

  14. #14
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    They'll probably nerf them to the point that it doesn't matter. However what will frustrate I think on lfr will probably be getting everyone to hit the same target with single target rotations instead of trying to inflate their numbers with aoe or simply being on the wrong target. Similar to Protectors in ToES LFR.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Considering every mechanic on paragons can be ignored in normal I expect the same is true for LFR. I am more worried about idiots opening all the boxes on spoils or thok chomping the entire raid. I will only run flex if I need anything on my first and second alt, for all the other alts and main it is flex all the way. I suggest you do the same. Flex>LFR on every level.
    Pretty much this. Flex is definately the way to go for the casual yet skilled raider. It almost feels like blizzard is pourposely pushing away people who use it as means to gear into normals. Frankly with plenty of people willing to forgo LFR all together with the introduction of flex i can only see LFR going into a tailspin with its eventual crash and burn.
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  16. #16
    The only reason i am doing Soo on lfr i because i want to get my runestones fast (9/12 atm <3) i wont do the 2 last on lfr because it doesn`t give me stones, the lowest i will go is flex, hopefully it wont be as messy as shamans

  17. #17
    The Lightbringer TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Err, you do 80k dps in 470-475 gear. You do 110-120k in 496. At least that's been my experience with single target fights with no damage buffs/debuffs. LFR was tuned on the PTR where everyone's ilvl was forcibly set to 496.
    Depends entirely on the itemization of gear and which slots you have. I've got a second pally that pulls 110k in 505 while my rogue is at 90k in 510, the rogue however is using a 502 and 476 while the pally is using a 536 (lfr nazgrim weap upgraded). Different classes scale differently, poor itemization on the timeless gear doesn't help either (I actually got two helms with the same ilvl but one had 800 of two secondary stats while the other had only 600 of the exact same secondary stats, I have no clue why but this is an example of how screwed up gear from the isle is).
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  18. #18
    The Lightbringer LocNess's Avatar
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    After all the horror stories I have heard for LFR, I am staying out of it for a good month or two before things settle down. Hopefully by that time I won't even need to enter it, but yeah Paragon is probably going to be a real cluster****.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    No it is not. 496 is more than sufficient to do SoO LFR.

    Problem is that LFR encourages people to be lazy because there'll be someone else there to pick up the slack and carry them to the purples that they deserve for paying $15 a month. Who runs lfr that has NEVER seen someone deliberately run into a kill move just so they can die and afk sammich while others do the job...then rage about how the loot system is rubbish and they got nothing.
    I'll call out on this and say that I have yet to ever see someone deliberately die so they can AFK. I have never seen anyone who feels they "deserve purples" for paying $15 per month. I've seen people that need improvement, sure, but never anyone like this mythical "whining entitled casual" that expects loot for no work at all and wants to AFK through easymode raids.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Err, you do 80k dps in 470-475 gear. You do 110-120k in 496. At least that's been my experience with single target fights with no damage buffs/debuffs. LFR was tuned on the PTR where everyone's ilvl was forcibly set to 496.
    You're assuming people in lfr have enchants and gems and optimal dps rotations. Which, for the most part, they do not.

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