Shivarra vs Observer

[Betrayerx]

Anyone tested the Shivarra vs Obsever on anything like simcraft? I've been running with the Shivarra on our heroic Malkorok attempts this past Thursday and blade dance's highest crit was 266k, which is massive in comparison to anything the observer puts out and Shiv auto's don't do much less then Observer. Just want a math whiz to actually get some numbers to prove or disprove my theory that Shiv does more dmg then Observer. If you are going to copy/paste pet info from Zinnin or Evrelia's guide please don't bother posting. I am well aware of what they say. I'm looking for actual numbers to approve or disprove.

[Annoroth]

Observer is a higher single target full uptime DPS pet.

[Numidia]

I don't have concrete data or anything, but blade dance also costs more than tongue lash.

[fassade]

Observer for Parchwerk type bosses, imp for Nazgrim type.

[Betrayerx]

and your numbers to back these up?

[Baconeggcheese]

Haven't figured out why but the entire xpac observer sims higher yet imp does more dmg on live fights in every situation I've used either pet. They have voidlord second right now on simcraft too and he's usually dead last unless he's tanking something for me.

The hypothetical difference between them on simcraft is so small I'd rather just use imp for the extra heal and dispel in most situations. On top of it being ranged.

[Jessicka]

I prefer to use Succubus (Shivarra if I ever used Supremacy) when not Demo as they have better mobility for switching and don't end up stood in shit and away from heals. Not that I've known that to be much of an issue recently, but its a problem I always used to have with Imps.

[Alaira]

I prefer to use Succubus (Shivarra if I ever used Supremacy) when not Demo as they have better mobility for switching and don't end up stood in shit and away from heals. Not that I've known that to be much of an issue recently, but its a problem I always used to have with Imps.

In addition, the Succubus/Shivara is semi-ranged, in that their special attack has a bit more distance than the Felhound/Observer special. This helps with target switches as well.

[Ichifails]

Haven't figured out why but the entire xpac observer sims higher yet imp does more dmg on live fights in every situation I've used either pet. They have voidlord second right now on simcraft too and he's usually dead last unless he's tanking something for me.

The hypothetical difference between them on simcraft is so small I'd rather just use imp for the extra heal and dispel in most situations. On top of it being ranged.

You said this in the Observer vs Imp thread. Eiffeltower, while trying to prove that the Imp does more damage than the observer by providing logs, he proved that the Observer does indeed do more damage than the Imp.

I seriously want to see some logs that prove otherwise and not what we already know.

- - - Updated - - -

In addition, the Succubus/Shivarra is semi-ranged, in that their special attack has a bit more distance than the Felhound/Observer special. This helps with target switches as well.

I prefer to use Succubus (Shivarra if I ever used Supremacy) when not Demo as they have better mobility for switching and don't end up stood in shit and away from heals. Not that I've known that to be much of an issue recently, but its a problem I always used to have with Imps.

If these are the people that claim the Imp/Shivarra are better than the Observer (with no logs for either) then it's pretty safe to say Observer is the best pet choice.

[Baconeggcheese]

Honestly the arguments not worth the effort for me, our siege logs are private and what logs where we had 3-4 warlocks testing this stuff simultaneously are long since expired.

To give you anything definitive I'd have to do something more than simply herpderp link 2-3 logs and expect that to give you any real information. Considering that simcraft results for example don't start to become accurate until 10,000 iterations I'd need to provide thousands of logs to have anything more than anecdotal evidence.

The reason I said this in both threads as I did in the past is because on personal experience testing this some limited number of times along with other warlocks in my guild (reckoning - US -mannoroth) we all found the imp doing a decent bit more damage than any other pet in every scenario. 50% more? not that I recall, but it was always ahead.

So every time I see the question pop up and then the army of casuals that come out to regurgitate the observer info, I feel the need to throw in a *you're not crazy, I along with the other locks in my guild got the same results too despite what the mass is telling you* in hopes that maybe some other people will take the time to test it themselves instead of taking it at face value. Because simply put simcraft is FAR FAR FAR from infallible.

[Ichifails]

Honestly the arguments not worth the effort for me, our siege logs are private and what logs where we had 3-4 warlocks testing this stuff simultaneously are long since expired.

To give you anything definitive I'd have to do something more than simply herpderp link 2-3 logs and expect that to give you any real information. Considering that simcraft results for example don't start to become accurate until 10,000 iterations I'd need to provide thousands of logs to have anything more than anecdotal evidence.

The reason I said this in both threads as I did in the past is because on personal experience testing this some limited number of times along with other warlocks in my guild (reckoning - US -mannoroth) we all found the imp doing a decent bit more damage than any other pet in every scenario. 50% more? not that I recall, but it was always ahead.

So every time I see the question pop up and then the army of casuals that come out to regurgitate the observer info, I feel the need to throw in a *you're not crazy, I along with the other locks in my guild got the same results too despite what the mass is telling you* in hopes that maybe some other people will take the time to test it themselves instead of taking it at face value. Because simply put simcraft is FAR FAR FAR from infallible.

Army of casuals ? So by your definition I am a casual? I guess that being anonymous on the internet has that effect. And simcraft? Let me guess, you know for sure that my info is 100% from simcraft.

I won't bother looking at your guild, by your attitude it is 25 man and of somewhat decent progress. That doesn't make you even close to a good player. I myself like having my warlock next to my friends in an average (1000-ish) guild because people see that and when they don't have anything to prove me wrong they just go "I HAVE BETTER PROGRESS HURR DURR".

The main reason I enjoyed wow is because all the maths behind it. In WotLK I got to the point where I had around 2 notebooks for each class full of theorycrafting, stuff that isn't easy to find. My "work" might or might have not taken me somewhere and since good information comes at a price, it probably did.


Now all I'm asking is for some proof that any of these claims are wrong. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe simcraft is wrong. Being wrong is good, let's you look over everything you did. All you people are doing at the moment is dragging your guilds down. There's a good reason blizzard said most people/classes aren't played the way they expect and most are played badly. There's also a reason why people in my puny guild with no progress rank in the top 10 DPS for most fights until the ilvl gap gets so big that gear carries over class understanding.

[Baconeggcheese]

You're quite on the defense, you should calm down the tone you read things in. Not everything is a personal attack, you can quite clearly see a lot of what I said was generalizations. I have 0 info about you, your armory is not linked on your signature or anything... for all I know you could be a very high ranked and respected warlock in the community on a random unknown account. Wouldn't change what I said.

Now all I'm asking is for some proof that any of these claims are wrong. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe simcraft is wrong. Being wrong is good, let's you look over everything you did.

Since this was the only non-butt hurt part of that response that was well said...

Like I said in my last post, the only way I could give you anything beyond anecdotal evidence would require me to give you thousands of logs with trends etc. I simply put don't have the resources for it. I for sure could look up some random logs and find ones where the observer did less than an imp, but it wouldn't really be very telling.

I'd need at least a few dozen if not hundreds or thousands of logs in identical gear under identical circumstances to be able to link something as definitive. linking like 5 logs doesn't really back my argument at all. Realistically the pets are SO close together in terms of dps these days that unless you do something silly (like leave tongue lash toggled off) its not really worth such heated discussion.

Believe me if people had anything beyond anecdotal evidence and simcraft that observer or any pet is truly better than another I'd not be using my imp but realistically all we all have is mostly hot air to argue these points on so...

[Deleted]

Army of casuals ? So by your definition I am a casual? I guess that being anonymous on the internet has that effect. And simcraft? Let me guess, you know for sure that my info is 100% from simcraft.

I won't bother looking at your guild, by your attitude it is 25 man and of somewhat decent progress. That doesn't make you even close to a good player. I myself like having my warlock next to my friends in an average (1000-ish) guild because people see that and when they don't have anything to prove me wrong they just go "I HAVE BETTER PROGRESS HURR DURR".

The main reason I enjoyed wow is because all the maths behind it. In WotLK I got to the point where I had around 2 notebooks for each class full of theorycrafting, stuff that isn't easy to find. My "work" might or might have not taken me somewhere and since good information comes at a price, it probably did.


Now all I'm asking is for some proof that any of these claims are wrong. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe simcraft is wrong. Being wrong is good, let's you look over everything you did. All you people are doing at the moment is dragging your guilds down. There's a good reason blizzard said most people/classes aren't played the way they expect and most are played badly. There's also a reason why people in my puny guild with no progress rank in the top 10 DPS for most fights until the ilvl gap gets so big that gear carries over class understanding.

So your dps ranks top 10 on fights yet you claim to have fuck all progress? So your healers or tanks suck balls? Or do you wipe at 1% on purpose?

[FurtyIRL]

Army of casuals ? So by your definition I am a casual? I guess that being anonymous on the internet has that effect. And simcraft? Let me guess, you know for sure that my info is 100% from simcraft.

I won't bother looking at your guild, by your attitude it is 25 man and of somewhat decent progress. That doesn't make you even close to a good player. I myself like having my warlock next to my friends in an average (1000-ish) guild because people see that and when they don't have anything to prove me wrong they just go "I HAVE BETTER PROGRESS HURR DURR".

The main reason I enjoyed wow is because all the maths behind it. In WotLK I got to the point where I had around 2 notebooks for each class full of theorycrafting, stuff that isn't easy to find. My "work" might or might have not taken me somewhere and since good information comes at a price, it probably did.


Now all I'm asking is for some proof that any of these claims are wrong. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe simcraft is wrong. Being wrong is good, let's you look over everything you did. All you people are doing at the moment is dragging your guilds down. There's a good reason blizzard said most people/classes aren't played the way they expect and most are played badly. There's also a reason why people in my puny guild with no progress rank in the top 10 DPS for most fights until the ilvl gap gets so big that gear carries over class understanding.

Class understanding gets you progress which in turn gives you item levels. "Progress" doesn't clear itself.

[jason1975]

Anyone tested the Shivarra vs Obsever on anything like simcraft? I've been running with the Shivarra on our heroic Malkorok attempts this past Thursday and blade dance's highest crit was 266k, which is massive in comparison to anything the observer puts out and Shiv auto's don't do much less then Observer. Just want a math whiz to actually get some numbers to prove or disprove my theory that Shiv does more dmg then Observer. If you are going to copy/paste pet info from Zinnin or Evrelia's guide please don't bother posting. I am well aware of what they say. I'm looking for actual numbers to approve or disprove.

EDIT: Assuming Destro here . . . Felguard is obviously best for Demo

Honestly the difference is so small it's not worth worrying about. In fact, if you go off the latest Simc results, you cannot even correctly make the statement that the Observer is the highest DPS pet (accounting for the margin of error in the estimates). Where there is a statistically significant difference (observer to fel imp), it is less than 1%. Remember that this is a patchwerk sim with no movement or target switches.

TLDR: Pick your pet for its utility, because there is no effective DPS differential.

Shivara - AoE knockback + semi ranged (good for cleave switches) . . . and she is just kinda awesome looking
Observer - Interrupt+silence . . . and great if you like the "I'm going to sick my giant eyeball on you" thing
Fel Imp - Ranged + small heal + dispel (good for helter skelter kinds of fights) . . . and he's been our buddy for so long!! How can we abandon him now that he's all fel-y and stuff?
Voidlord - can use as offtank for some of the nastier adds. Remember to turn off his taunt if you're using him for DPS only. He kinda scares me sometimes though.

[Jessicka]

If these are the people that claim the Imp/Shivarra are better than the Observer (with no logs for either) then it's pretty safe to say Observer is the best pet choice.

I make the claim based on logic and coherence based on the mechanics of how the pets work. Lash of Pain with a 20 yard range is better for switching targets and dealing with kiting than melee swings, that's just the way it is and I'm really not sure how you disagree with that unless you've never played a melee class yourself. Being predominantly melee too means it is going to benefit more from smart and aoe heals than the Fel Imp that is more likely to be at risk of falling outside of such range and be at greater risk of standing in, and remaining in a pile of bad (and thus need those smart heals). Again, that's just something I picked up built on years of experience.

Either way, the difference in margins is so small that in depth analysis of logs probably wouldn't tell you a lot anyway because of the massive statistical bias towards the Observer because simcraft says it's the "right" one.

[jason1975]

Either way, the difference in margins is so small that in depth analysis of logs probably wouldn't tell you a lot anyway because of the massive statistical bias towards the Observer because simcraft says it's the "right" one.

Just to be clear, Simulationcraft does NOT say this. (Well it's just data, it doesn't really say anything).

People who don't know how to read the data say this (I know this is kinda to your point, but I want to emphasize it). Furthermore I would argue that attempting to understand such small variances as "clear advantages" is part of a major problem the community has: obsessing over minute (and probably irrelevant) details at the cost of not analyzing the most critical components (e.g., personal performance, positioning, raid mechanics, teamwork, strategy, etc).

We spend far too much time focusing on the minutia when we should instead turn our focus to the macro ("big picture"). If you want to really improve your play, focus on where you're standing (and why you're standing there at that time), what your role is, why your role is what it is, how you're working with your raid team, and the overall strategy.

[Grizelda]

My pet choice depends entirely on my transmog choice that week.


It has to match.

[FurtyIRL]

Just to be clear, Simulationcraft does NOT say this. (Well it's just data, it doesn't really say anything).

People who don't know how to read the data say this (I know this is kinda to your point, but I want to emphasize it). Furthermore I would argue that attempting to understand such small variances as "clear advantages" is part of a major problem the community has: obsessing over minute (and probably irrelevant) details at the cost of not analyzing the most critical components (e.g., personal performance, positioning, raid mechanics, teamwork, strategy, etc).

We spend far too much time focusing on the minutia when we should instead turn our focus to the macro ("big picture"). If you want to really improve your play, focus on where you're standing (and why you're standing there at that time), what your role is, why your role is what it is, how you're working with your raid team, and the overall strategy.

Completely relevant and in the grand scheme of things all those details add up and make a very noticeable difference. While it's true the fundamentals of playing well are the most important thing, knowing the best things for your class is surely not 'irrelevant'.

My pet choice depends entirely on my transmog choice that week.


It has to match.

Truth

[rijn dael]

My pet choice depends entirely on my transmog choice that week.


It has to match.

I can't find a pet to match my vestments of the shifting sands, so I sacrifice them.. Can't have a pet clashing with pretty pink outfit!