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  1. #21
    High Overlord
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    I'm just throwing it out here, but for add-heavy fights, the hunters Tallstrider pet applies an AOE 3 stack sunder every 25 seconds, and it lasts 30 seconds. Considering your raid is so melee heavy, and you likely have a lot of legendary cloaks an aoe sunder would likely be more of a dps increase than a spell haste pet. However, when you factor in healers benefiting from the haste, or single target fights it isn't as useful.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Moritsume View Post
    I'm just throwing it out here, but for add-heavy fights, the hunters Tallstrider pet applies an AOE 3 stack sunder every 25 seconds, and it lasts 30 seconds. Considering your raid is so melee heavy, and you likely have a lot of legendary cloaks an aoe sunder would likely be more of a dps increase than a spell haste pet. However, when you factor in healers benefiting from the haste, or single target fights it isn't as useful.
    true. but i would prolly take spellhaste for aoe fights regardless, our demo lock destroys the meters for em, and the vast majority of our aoe is magic damage (dots, BB, fire nova, poison ticks, immo aura, etc...). and there arent that many consistent cleave heavy fights to really warrant it.

  3. #23
    Deleted
    Just tell your rogue to press that button once every 30 seconds. Losing the spell haste would be a much bigger deal, especially when doing things with 2 healers.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Moritsume View Post
    I'm just throwing it out here, but for add-heavy fights, the hunters Tallstrider pet applies an AOE 3 stack sunder every 25 seconds, and it lasts 30 seconds. Considering your raid is so melee heavy, and you likely have a lot of legendary cloaks an aoe sunder would likely be more of a dps increase than a spell haste pet. However, when you factor in healers benefiting from the haste, or single target fights it isn't as useful.
    If it's an aoe situation the Rogue can put up Weakened Armor with the glyph of Sharp Knives as well.

  5. #25
    Your rogue is not doing the right thing. If he cared about your progression, he would expose. In our group we have 1 hunter and no crit buff, so the hunter brings crit pet and I sunder. I do it because it's for the good of the raid.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    I'm sorry, what? I understand that these are 10k-iteration numbers, but....what?

    I suspect I might just be getting miffed by the wording we've been using, but isn't it a DPS increase for the Rogue to apply it himself versus not having anyone apply it? And isn't this contradictory to previous mentions of "The Rogue doing Expose Armor is a DPS loss"?

    Or am I just confusing "The Rogue doing Expose Armor is a DPS loss" with "The Rogue doing Expose Armor if someone else has the capability to do it that isn't already providing something else is a DPS loss"?
    It makes sense really.

    It's one action per 30.5 seconds (in simulation) that still offers a combo point and grants ~99% uptime of 12% increased physical damage. So, it's not only a raid gain, but a personal gain to expose armor if no other source of weakened armor exists.
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  7. #27
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    Even if it was a dps loss for the raid, healing (especially when 2 healing) is usually more important than dps:

    Both resto druids and paladins have HoTs, and HoTs have haste breakpoints (get an extra tick when you reach a certain amount of haste), which are a huge HPS and HPM gain. Most players choose to get just enough haste for that breakpoint assuming they will have the 5% raid wide haste buff available. If they assume they won't have the haste buff the have to waste a lot of extra stats on haste to get to that haste breakpoint that would be better spend on mastery (in the case of druids and paladins).

    Resto druids benefit greatly from spell haste because it allows them to easily get the extra Rejuv tick at 3043 haste (and some other stuff)

    Assuming the holy pala is using eternal flame at least on some fights he also wants to go for either the 3506 or the 7170 haste breakpoint for the extra tick.

    I'm not sure if the protection paladin's eternal flame and sacred shield also benefit from spell haste.

    TL;DR Teach your healers about haste breakpoints and keep the haste buff.
    Last edited by mmoc0d1056ec69; 2013-10-01 at 11:12 AM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by RedFlame View Post
    I'd rather not force our healer to apply sunders. the uptime will most likely be less that optimal, as we 2heal everything and hes usually busy healing.

    - - - Updated - - -


    .
    specifically a personal dps loss to make him apply it, via the 25 energy and gcd every ~28 seconds, as expose armor does 0 damage in and of itself.

    so, for the rogue alone, not applying the debuff is 248k dps for him, having the debuff applied by soemone else is 252k, and if HE has to use gcds and energy to apply it, he's at 250k.

    the original issue being our rogue doesn't want to have to apply sunders, due to it being a personal dps loss, and puts forth switching a hunter from a spellhaste pet to a sunder pet, stating that it would be a net gain. i wanted proof to refute that claim, specifying that our lock would lose more from spellhaste than our rogue would gain from not having to apply expose armor.
    Re-read the post I quoted, and what you yourself wrote repeating it.
    It's a DPS GAIN for him to do it himself.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    Re-read the post I quoted, and what you yourself wrote repeating it.
    It's a DPS GAIN for him to do it himself.
    What that post you quoted was trying to say is that if it's already going to be there, it's certainly a DPS loss for him to apply instead. On the other hand, if it's not going to be there, it is a DPS gain. So yeah, it was your second sentence that was right.
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  10. #30
    spell haste is huge for your healers who should be gearing around haste breakpoints (its literally a few thousand haste rating for the higher break points).

    Have the Rogue suck it up and do it since its a raid dps gain, or if your resto druid is skilled enough - he could apply FF every 30 secs (it may be tricky during some progression fights - but its up to the druid as to whether or not he/she thinks they can manage: even if you dont get 100% uptime - some would be better than none...or back to square one of have the rogue do it

  11. #31
    It's a personal dps gain for a rogue to do it (in the absence of anyone else), therefore it is better the rogue do it than any caster druid--they lose throughput to maintain it, period.

  12. #32
    Immortal Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Something to add is that, in a blue post, they said that Sanctity of Battle (The effect that makes paladin abilities scale with haste) uses spell haste for all 3 specs- so not having 5% spell haste would also affect your tanks damage taken/done.

    Now, something to add is that new glyph, Sharpened Knives, makes FoK apply 1 stack of sunder armor to all targets. Sure, expose armor is a "bigger" damage increase, as it uses 10 less energy then FoK, and you can use it 2 less times/fight, but for any fight with adds (Basically everything but, what, 4 fights this tier?) it can provide a bigger dps increase to the rogue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Now, something to add is that new glyph, Sharpened Knives, makes FoK apply 1 stack of sunder armor to all targets. Sure, expose armor is a "bigger" damage increase, as it uses 10 less energy then FoK, and you can use it 2 less times/fight, but for any fight with adds (Basically everything but, what, 4 fights this tier?) it can provide a bigger dps increase to the rogue.
    Huh, I wonder if that 10 extra energy is worth the damage of FoK to maintain the debuff... Maybe not in Assassination, but combat perhaps.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Huh, I wonder if that 10 extra energy is worth the damage of FoK to maintain the debuff... Maybe not in Assassination, but combat perhaps.
    Sadly, I think Simulationcraft isn't up to date on this fact, I cannot get it to simulate FoK as the expose armor mechanic, it seems like it doesn't register the Sharpened Knives glyph's effect as of yet.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    It's a personal dps gain for a rogue to do it (in the absence of anyone else), therefore it is better the rogue do it than any caster druid--they lose throughput to maintain it, period.
    Analysis isn't correct.


    Assuming all our candidates are dps, under which circumstance does the raid do more damage? If a balance/feral druid uses less than the rogue, he should do it. And this should be based on the balance/feral druid's ACTUAL damage versus the rogue's ACTUAL damage- you could swap it around and have the less geared guy do it to.


    If it's a resto druid, then obviously it is best for dps that he maintain it. But if the fight has super tight healing, then this is not optimal.

  15. #35
    Feral most certainly should be higher priority over a rogue since the sunder does not cost them energy and they have lots of free globals anyway, but a balance druid casting a global on FF is a global the druid is not spending doing damage. It is a raid dps gain for the balance druid to apply sunder, but it is a personal dps loss for the druid to do that. For the rogue it is a personal and raid dps gain to apply sunder for all specs (yes, assassination, too).

    I'd argue sunder priority should go (ignoring hunter pets): prot warrior/guardian druid > feral druid > rogues/dps warrior (you can argue which is better to sunder either way) > balance/resto druid.

    No matter how you cut it, rogues are MUCH better as a sunder class than they were at any point in the past. Expose armor is actually useful now.

    Edit: Quick sim in simcraft shows that a balance druid loses about 3% dps to maintain sunder. A rogue only loses ~1% (both relative to someone else sundering).

    Edit 2: I just simmed our balance druid, our assassination rogue, and my rogue with the 5 combinations of sunder application (assassination rogue with and without glyph, combat rogue with and without glyph, and balance druid sundering).

    I did find some interesting and unexpected results. The biggest surprise to me was that a combat rogue GAINS dps from applying sunder even relative to someone else sundering. The best possible explanation for this that I can think of is that expose armor is a cheap combo point builder for combat rogues and combo points are so valuable to the spec (via restless blades)

    Results:

    Trial 1: Assassination rogue sundering, no EA glyph
    DPS Ranking:
    753877 100.0% Raid
    268217 35.6% Combat
    257392 34.1% Balance
    228268 30.3% Assassination

    Trial 2: Assassination rogue sundering, with EA glyph
    DPS Ranking:
    753502 100.0% Raid
    267953 35.6% Combat
    257090 34.1% Balance
    228459 30.3% Assassination

    Trial 3: Combat rogue sundering, no EA glyph
    DPS Ranking:
    758349 100.0% Raid
    272144 35.9% Combat
    257054 33.9% Balance
    229152 30.2% Assassination

    Trial 4: Combat rogue sundering, EA glyph
    DPS Ranking:
    759260 100.0% Raid
    272420 35.9% Combat
    257400 33.9% Balance
    229439 30.2% Assassination

    Trial 5: Balance druid sundering
    DPS Ranking:
    751326 100.0% Raid
    267926 35.7% Combat
    254192 33.8% Balance
    229208 30.5% Assassination

    The highest raid dps was with the combat rogue sundering, using glyph of expose armor. The lowest raid dps was with the balance druid sundering.

    Given that our assassination rogue does not normally run in the same group that I do, that leaves the sunder option to either myself or the balance druid (the hunter is out of the question, we have no crit buff in our group so he has to supply that via pet). If the druid sunders, the druid and I both lose dps. If I sunder, both of us gain dps.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-10-02 at 05:27 AM.

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