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  1. #1

    The Watered Down and Diluted WF race

    Method will dominate the entire next expansion aswell if they keep it together. Unfortunately with 25s and 10s being equal since cataclysm, drop from over 12 mil subs from ICC hc days WHERE 25 man was the pinnacle format and now with Asian guilds on a separate race has really watered down the WF race to such an extent that there is no real competition for Method. Just to think none of the top 5 25 man guilds today were in the top 10 during ICC heroic.

    http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier10_25

    A lot of great players and officers of these top guilds quit because they were personally disgusted with blizzard making 10s and 25s equal and this lead to the downfall of many guilds and leaving skilled players less and less guilds to move into. Guilds like Method have benefitted from the downfall of other top guilds by having a sound management team and getting these top players that wanted to carry on raiding at a high level.

  2. #2
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Surely by the logic that Method is 13th here they should still have competition?
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  3. #3
    Pit Lord Cyrops's Avatar
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    If you have 25core pros, and other guilds disband. You have no place in your raid team to take the pros from disbanded guild.
    Math?

  4. #4
    Warchief gutnbrg's Avatar
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    yea i really have no care for the WF race anymore, and ive felt this way since Cata. However I dont think Method actually dominated, I mean Blood legion was only 1 boss behind...

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrops View Post
    If you have 25core pros, and other guilds disband. You have no place in your raid team to take the pros from disbanded guild.
    Math?
    Top guilds will take the best players. there is no loyalties in a WF progress guild.

  6. #6
    I think the only thing that proves is you care too much about the past raiding scene (with good reason probably). Enjoy the race for what it is, not whatever it "used to be". Find interesting streams to watch and participate in conversations on twitter and in live chats if those are things you're into. Also, the race seemed a lot closer this tier anyway. I don't actively follow it personally so maybe it really wasn't very close, but there are a lot of other guilds at 11+/14 right now, with 4 other 25s at 13/14.

    EDIT: Also, what the posters above me said

  7. #7
    If they are at the top, they already have players among the best.
    Also, don't forget that "playing as a team" is a huge factor in raiding. You can't just throw people away, without thinking of the consequences.

    With today's standards, I think guild "force" only one or two player per instance. The rest of the turnover is pretty much people getting tired of playing. So that makes a relatively small turnover
    Last edited by Shauni; 2013-10-01 at 07:39 AM.

  8. #8
    High Overlord ujx's Avatar
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    Welcome to WoW. Guilds die. Guilds who used to be mediocre or even decent are now top guilds. Raiding has gone through a huge makeover. Now guilds raid 80+ hour weeks during progression, pretty much making the world first race only between 3 guilds that can actually attempt those hours. The world first race by default is stupid since EU gets patches 1 day later, Asia gets increased ilvl, and none of it is sanctioned by Blizzard.

    When Method and/or BL disband, another mediocre guild will absorb them and change their schedules to become the new top guilds. With the way subs are going I wouldn't be surprised if these 2 guilds will be the only ones competing for expansions to come.

  9. #9
    OP is right. The race is not really a race anymore and it's a complete joke if you compare it to the situation in BC / Wrath. There were a LOT more guilds that competed back then, like a lot more.

    Now there's like 5-6 guilds in the world who raid "hardcore" (meaning: put in a lot of hours) and so those are on top. Basically you only have to raid a lot to make the top 10 or 20. In WoTLK you actually needed skill aswell, because the competition was so fierce. Even being top 100 was a huge accomplishment back then, now it's a joke.

  10. #10
    Herald of the Titans Gobra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hightotemz View Post
    Method will dominate the entire next expansion aswell if they keep it together. Unfortunately with 25s and 10s being equal since cataclysm, drop from over 12 mil subs from ICC hc days WHERE 25 man was the pinnacle format and now with Asian guilds on a separate race has really watered down the WF race to such an extent that there is no real competition for Method. Just to think none of the top 5 25 man guilds today were in the top 10 during ICC heroic.

    http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier10_25

    A lot of great players and officers of these top guilds quit because they were personally disgusted with blizzard making 10s and 25s equal and this lead to the downfall of many guilds and leaving skilled players less and less guilds to move into. Guilds like Method have benefitted from the downfall of other top guilds by having a sound management team and getting these top players that wanted to carry on raiding at a high level.
    I would love to see your source on this please, It's never a good thing to say things as fact to back up your opinion without giving some sources.
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  11. #11
    So lets put some perspective on things and taking into account ICC heroic was open for a year. Over 1100 25 man guilds killed LK 25 heroic over that period. Over 6500 25 man guilds managed 11/12 heroic.

    Last tier only +- 1400 25 man guilds did Jin rok hc and 259 managed a full heroic clear.

  12. #12
    I believe ~220 guilds killed Kil'jaeden before 3.0 back in Burning Crusade and 88 guilds got a Kel'Thuzad kill before Burning Crusade dropped.

    Wrath was certainly the time when raiding had the most players.

  13. #13
    Pit Lord Cyrops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hightotemz View Post
    Top guilds will take the best players. there is no loyalties in a WF progress guild.
    But you already have top 25 world players.

  14. #14
    Brewmaster cyqu's Avatar
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    just like the watered down races when paragon had no competition, or when nihilum had no competition.. the races are always so watered down.
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  15. #15
    Legendary! Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hightotemz View Post
    So lets put some perspective on things and taking into account ICC heroic was open for a year. Over 1100 25 man guilds killed LK 25 heroic over that period. Over 6500 25 man guilds managed 11/12 heroic.

    Last tier only +- 1400 25 man guilds did Jin rok hc and 259 managed a full heroic clear.
    More people are doing lfr/flex now.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Jainzar View Post
    OP is right. The race is not really a race anymore and it's a complete joke if you compare it to the situation in BC / Wrath. There were a LOT more guilds that competed back then, like a lot more.
    WotLK with the limited attempts forcing the hardcore to level alts of the same class as their main, raiding and gearing them up to the same standard? Yeah, that didn't require much time.

    World firsts has always been about who spends the most time. Results in pretty much anything, from university studies to WoW raiding, are a product of skill and time. With WoW having a really low skill ceiling time becomes the deciding factor.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Rioo View Post
    WotLK with the limited attempts forcing the hardcore to level alts of the same class as their main, raiding and gearing them up to the same standard? Yeah, that didn't require much time.

    World firsts has always been about who spends the most time. Results in pretty much anything, from university studies to WoW raiding, are a product of skill and time. With WoW having a really low skill ceiling time becomes the deciding factor.
    Vanilla/TBC world firsts didn't involve a lot of time invested. There were way more guilds stuck on bosses like Nefarian than there were H Garrosh when it was finally killed.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Hightotemz View Post
    So lets put some perspective on things and taking into account ICC heroic was open for a year. Over 1100 25 man guilds killed LK 25 heroic over that period. Over 6500 25 man guilds managed 11/12 heroic.

    Last tier only +- 1400 25 man guilds did Jin rok hc and 259 managed a full heroic clear.
    Comparing 25 man raiding numbers in WoTLK or prior to recent is meaningless since they changed their philosophy in Cataclysm to make 10/25s equal and share lockouts.

    Also your numbers for ICC obviously include kills with the buff compared to no buff for last tier.

    To quote Billy Madison:

    "Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by jearle View Post
    Comparing 25 man raiding numbers in WoTLK or prior to recent is meaningless since they changed their philosophy in Cataclysm to make 10/25s equal and share lockouts.

    Also your numbers for ICC obviously include kills with the buff compared to no buff for last tier.

    To quote Billy Madison:

    "Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
    I think his point was the philosophy failed.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Rioo View Post
    WotLK with the limited attempts forcing the hardcore to level alts of the same class as their main, raiding and gearing them up to the same standard? Yeah, that didn't require much time.

    World firsts has always been about who spends the most time. Results in pretty much anything, from university studies to WoW raiding, are a product of skill and time. With WoW having a really low skill ceiling time becomes the deciding factor.
    Have you even read what I said? I didn't write anywhere that raiding didn't require much time back then. All I said was that there was a lot more competition in BC and Wrath, which can't really be denied and that you needed more skill than you do now, because of the said stronger competition. Of course you also had to invest time back then, but you couldn't make the top 10 or 20 by only investing time, as you can now

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