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  1. #61
    I still think it should count. Its not their fault that they get all the advantages from Blizzard

  2. #62
    Stood in the Fire rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Chaos View Post
    Just wondering really as i always figured they were part of the "WORLD" and this whole world first heroic kill applied to all people all over the world.

    The Chinese/Asia are part of the "World" are they not? Did they not kill the last boss on heroic first?

    Why are people discriminating against the Chinese/Asia. Do you think they are "lesser people".

    Lable the kill "EU/US FIRST" sure but not "WORLD FIRST" that is just not accurate you are devaluing the Chinese/Asia they play this game also and are just as much a part of it as you.

    I expect allot of EU/US is harder, Chinese/Asin's had better kit etc etc, but no just no! They should not apply at all they still got the "WORLD FIRST HEROIC".
    because all asian servers have the following:-

    >split lockouts, making it possible to raid not only 25 man in a single week, but also 10 man in the same week, unlike the remaining regions of the world that are still on the single lockout per week system implemented in cataclysm.

    >higher item level gear for all 25 man encounters, every single item that drops in 25 player mode on asian servers is 8 item levels higher than anything that drops in other game regions, giving the asian servers a severe and vast ilvl advantage, in order to make the ilvl not too big of an issue, 25 man bosses have 15% more HP and damage than the eu/us versions of the ecounters, but the 10 man varient is identical, making it trivial for asian guilds relative to eu/us guilds who are 10 man specific.

    >dual weekly lockout resets on previous tier content, whenever a new tier is released, the previous tier of content is put on a reset schedule of 2 resets per week, instead of the standard one single weekly reset, which allows the asian guilds vastly more alt gearing up opportunities and a vast advantage when it comes to class setup choices for every encounter over the eu/us guilds.


    so in summary, everybody ignores the asian race and it is a seperate region specific race, not in any way connected to the rest of the "world" ergo, the Method kill registered in the last several hours, is the official "World first" and "west" first, whereas the kill registered couple of days ago by that chinese guild is also a "world first", but it is an "asia" first.


    until such a time as everything is even between all game regions, there will never be a single world first race, and it will remain fragmented due to the numerous differences between region types.

    hope this helps explain things, if not, well, i dunno what to say other than, oh well, we tried.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyattbw09 View Post
    It is not the same as cheating. Cheating is circumventing the rules. When a guild cheats using bug exploits Blizzard wipes away their progress and rewards. The Asian guild played under a different but fully legal rule set. The kill does not mean as much as Method's kill. However, calling them cheaters is simply misinformed and wrong headed.
    Exactly, they did not cheat.. but they also did not finish the tier yet. Their system is designed around 25M being the hardest difficulty, they have not killed him there yet despite being a 25M guild.

  4. #64
    Epic! schwank05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Chaos View Post
    Then should the kills not be labeled "WORLD FIRST (EU/US CLIENT)" Or something i still do not see the logic.. FIRST means to kill something first and WORLD means everyone.

    They both fit into the WORLD and FIRST criteria regardless of difficulty.
    They get more than one raid resets a week its not even in the same playing field. they have a huge gear advantage period.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyattbw09 View Post
    The problem is all semantics. We tend to think of the World First kill as the best kill. It is not Asia's fault they play under a different rule set. Thus they get a "World First" kill. The kill has less meaning because the rule set in NA/EU is different adding a greater deal of challenge. We simply have to get past the idea that World First is the most prestigious kill.
    So silly... lets say in country Wedontcareaboutrulesestan they have no anty doping rules. Thus a runner dopes up blows away Husain bolts time ... should that runner be given the world record time even though everyone knows they are not playing with the same rules as the rest of the world?

    As well if there 10 and 25 mans were set up the same as us it would be one thing but they farmed 25 mans that get them 2/4 upgraded items on teh drop and then went back to 10 man that is tuned lower in aisian markets (thing WOTLK 10 vs 25 man raids) and then blew through 10 man heroic with the 25 man gear. It's apples to oranges..sure there both fruits but there totaly different fruits!

  6. #66
    Different circumstances = different "league".
    It's like arguing that Indy and F1 should share titles because they both have cars.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Chaos View Post
    It would make for a more interesting Olympics if they did...
    a better analogy would of been the Olympics giving all Asian athletes the option to use performance enhancing drugs while banning everyone else from taking them.

    The EU/US kill is the kill that everyone should care about because that was how Blizzard intended on tuning the content and it's also the game version played by most. Most of your argument is against the title itself being inaccurate but really when you correct it and make it "US/EU First" for the kill that matters then you're throwing away the often entertaining race to world first which really should include Asia if they would just make the gear and lockouts like they are in the West. "Race to EU/US First" is a needless change to the title of the competition amongst the US and the EU for the first kill of the boss with intended tuning. Leave it as it is even if you consider some kill which took significantly less effort than the real kill as valid for some reason.

    Quick solution for Blizz make the Asian players gear scale down to the equivalent 10 man ilvl if they enter a 10 man so we won't have to deal with this shit in future tiers.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Chaos View Post
    Then should the kills not be labeled "WORLD FIRST (EU/US CLIENT)" Or something i still do not see the logic.. FIRST means to kill something first and WORLD means everyone.

    They both fit into the WORLD and FIRST criteria regardless of difficulty.
    the categories should be named "World First" and "World First with handicap"
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    Nope, you are wrong. Their 25M raids drop higher ilvl gear than 10M raids, AND it can be upgraded 4 times, not 2 times. That is the point everyone is trying to make. There is a very steep difficulty jump in Asia going from 10M to 25M. They used all the gear from the 25M and then backtracked and killed the boss on the easier 10M version which is designed around a much lower ilvl. In EU/USA 10M and 25M are designed to be similar in difficulty.. in China, there is clear progression from 10M to 25M with huge ilvl increases included.
    You're also slow someone already came in and informed me about the way the loot drops are different!

    It still reinforces the point that the "world" first race should be dropped and it should be done by region otherwise you get the stupid issue of "the world champions" for a race that is only eligible in one or two areas and not the whole world. Only thing I had wrong was the item level of the loot. Everything else was spot on.

  10. #70
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Chaos View Post
    Just wondering really as i always figured they were part of the "WORLD" and this whole world first heroic kill applied to all people all over the world.

    The Chinese/Asia are part of the "World" are they not? Did they not kill the last boss on heroic first?

    Why are people discriminating against the Chinese/Asia. Do you think they are "lesser people".

    Lable the kill "EU/US FIRST" sure but not "WORLD FIRST" that is just not accurate you are devaluing the Chinese/Asia they play this game also and are just as much a part of it as you.
    Understand that the separate and shorter lockouts Asian players get disqualifies them from the standard world first race that occurs in the west. Why is the west's competition more valid than the Asian one? Because it started in the West.
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    It does reinforce the point of counting each region and setting as a separate race.
    Which is already done.

    The World first is between players on the EU/USA version, Where you get 1 lockout, No pre-upgrades. The point is moot anyway the asiawow kill wasn't even 25H it was 10H which is the same as EU/USA but they had vastly improved ilvl. It counts only to them and rabid squinteye fanboys/trouble-causers.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    So I take it in the olympics if some one is caught using steroids so long as they were first in the race you are ok with them keepign gold... It doesnt matter they had an advantage over thre competitors they were still first... right?

    that is the argument you are making right now FYI
    The "RULES" are made up by everyone and are different to everyone it seems. No in the Olympics they would be stripped of the gold as the rules clearly state no drug use.

    I have yet to see any official rule or record even saying that the Chinese or Asians cannot compete due to an easier time. With no rules saying you cannot use a client other than the EU/US one then them getting the FIRST KILL just makes it VALID.

    Show me some rules and i will say sorry and agree, but with no rules at all its fair game if they have got a first kill them gz they got it. Blame the rule makers not the origin of the people playing the game and participating in the race.

    If the Olympics had no rules about using drugs and someone won gold, i would let them keep the medal. Why? BECAUSE THE OTHERS COULD HAVE USED DRUGS ALSO!


    So much talk about "RULES" you have no rules, they have not cheated they killed the boss first with a handy-cap yes but they still killed it first.

    If you want to make your own contest up with clear "Rules" go ahead and state them before it starts. Same as said with Olympics above, if its not in the rules not to then fair game.

    If this competition was very serious you would have EU/US guilds playing on Chinese servers for world first. If they had rules however saying to be world first you need to be on eu/us client i would say thats kinda nasty and discriminating it is not there fault, but i guess they could play the eu/us client heh?

    Separate the World first kills are the only fair way.


    Just because they have a client made a different way than eu/us does not make them less legit at all. No rules say anything about them having to use an EU/US client and if there were then that would be discrimination for sure. Without the rules the world first title goes to whoever killed the boss first.
    Last edited by Mr Chaos; 2013-10-01 at 02:47 PM.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by pathetic View Post
    Which is already done.

    The World first is between players on the EU/USA version, Where you get 1 lockout, No pre-upgrades. The point is moot anyway the asiawow kill wasn't even 25H it was 10H which is the same as EU/USA but they had vastly improved ilvl. It counts only to them and rabid squinteye fanboys/trouble-causers.
    It should not be a world first race though, Region first at best. From what I say they are mislabeling it as world first still when its not true.

  14. #74
    Warchief Azgraal's Avatar
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    Did this even merit yet another thread?

    Different client, different rules and loot ilvl.
    Next.
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  15. #75
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    Why are scores higher in American football than football played in the rest of the world?

    It's because a "goal" in football is worth one point in almost every country, but 7 in America. And the Americans are wearing armor.

    Same name doesn't make it the same game.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    So silly... lets say in country Wedontcareaboutrulesestan they have no anty doping rules. Thus a runner dopes up blows away Husain bolts time ... should that runner be given the world record time even though everyone knows they are not playing with the same rules as the rest of the world?

    As well if there 10 and 25 mans were set up the same as us it would be one thing but they farmed 25 mans that get them 2/4 upgraded items on teh drop and then went back to 10 man that is tuned lower in aisian markets (thing WOTLK 10 vs 25 man raids) and then blew through 10 man heroic with the 25 man gear. It's apples to oranges..sure there both fruits but there totaly different fruits!
    Which is why world records are determined by international bodies under a specific rule set determined by that body. Blizzard is that international body in this case, they made the rule and all the guilds thus far have played within the rules.

    Your example is only apt if people were tying to make a case that a "World First" kill should be counted by some guy playing on a private server. Nobody is making that point in the same way nobody would conclude that Wedontcareaboutrulesestan's runner was a world record holder.

  17. #77
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by averykey View Post
    The reasoning people have is because they had higher ilvl gear without 10 man being scaled higher, in china they are able to upgrade their gear four times and I think the 25 man loot is also higher ilvl. Not to mention they have separate lockouts for 10 and 25 man.

    It's just not fair to compare it with eu and us with the obvious buffs they have in comparison.
    They can only upgrade their items 2 times same as EU/NA. The 25M raids drop items that are +8 item levels higher than 10M which drop the same item levels of EU/NA 10M & 25M.

    The raid team with an average item level of 570.16 killed it on 10 Man Heroic. After updating their progress to 14/14 the item level is 572.75.

    Method has an item level of 566.8 giving them a total of 3.36 to 5.95 item level difference. A question that should be asked is when has item level ever been fair thanks to random drops. I don't recall any guilds ever having the same exact gear or item levels when competing for world first. I thought it was funny how the front page listed rounded up for the Asian/Chinese guild and rounded down for the EU/NA guild
    The group had a 573+ item level, compared to the top US and EU guilds that currently have a 565 item level.
    World First Heroic: 天 啟

    World First 10 Man Heroic: 天 啟
    World First 25 Man Heroic: Method

    Region First EU Heroic: Method
    Region First EU 25 Man Heroic: Method

    Region First Asia Heroic: 天 啟
    Region First Asia 10 Man Heroic: 天 啟
    Last edited by nyxtyr; 2013-10-01 at 03:15 PM.

  18. #78
    "World First Heroic."

    You may claim that it's racist because "World first is only US/EU!!" but, as many annoyed crossrealmers and LFDers can attribute, US/EU servers are much more than just US/EU. that's where the 'World' part comes from.

    The Chinese version of heroic are considered a different difficulty level because of the double lockout and the increased item level. thus, it's not the hardest, or true 'Heroic' version of the instances. that's where the 'Heroic' part comes from.

    And 'First' is pretty self-explanatory.


    Chinese guilds shouldn't expect for people to give them credit for a legitimate "World First Kill" if they aren't on an even playing field with the rest of the world. Wanna give them a title? sure, "WoWChina First Heroic(10) kill!" Grats to them. And Grats to Method for WoW First Heroic(25) Kill.

  19. #79
    when wow asia became a different game then wow in the western world, different rules different race.......its like the super bowl and the grey cup.....both are football but their different competition as the rules are different.

    honostly at this point world first is the wrong term. should be Asia realms 10/25 and eu/us 10/25

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by sarasun View Post
    Asians have it easier because of double lockouts, yes.

    Still, world first is world first. It has no relevance anymore.

    People need to start talking about EU/US first to eliminate the confusion.

    It's like saying Usain Bolt isn't eligible for World's fastest runner. He has the unfair advantage of being a man. Only women should be included in the world's fastest running competition. Seriously, there is the world's fastest man and the world's fastest woman, that's all. If you ask who is the fastest human in the world, then Usain Bolt is. Stars got World First, that's all.
    Yours and OPs ignorance level is over nine thousand.

    Sure they got the kill first.

    But they're NOT playing the game how it was actually developed. Like it has been said 100 times already.

    Bosses on 25 man have 8% extra health and damage not 10 man, and the world first kill was on 10man. 10 and 25 and normal and heroic don't share same lockout like in EU/US therefore they're already having around 3 times more advantage then us which is not fair. Their items are upgradeable 4 times, but they already drop 2/4 upgraded, so they can get total of 8 more ilvl on ALL items. It's not like comparing a man to a woman, are you really saying men are 3 times better then woman in everything? Wow, you really have no respect for women do you?

    It's like you would compare 2 runners on the Olympic, one is wearing normal shoes, other one is wearing high tech boots that make you run 3 times faster then the fastest runner with normal shoes. And those rocket boots would not be qualified for a world firsts because it does go against the rules. That would mean it isn't world first.

    So we can safely say that Asian guild is ASIAN first, but method is WORLD first. That's the only thing that makes sense, saying otherwise makes no sense.

    If this does not clear this up then damn, your ignorance wont be cured.

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