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  1. #1

    Holy Pally's AOE healing is too weak compared to other Classes

    Holy Pally's AOE healing is too weak compared to other Classes.
    Many people who play Holy Pallys seem to be unhappy with the particular nerf on Holy Radiance and Arcing Light.
    We understand the reason given to us was to reduce lag issues...But what about other heal classes being able to heal up a whole raid at once.
    Holy Pallys are the only healing class now that does not have the ability to heal up most of the raid (like other classes). Furthermore, our heals do not increase with targets in a 25 man setting like other classes.

    Please refer to the comparison of AOE heals below:
    *Indicates a heal caused by a proc, cause, or another heal.

    Holy Pally
    1. Arcing Light: Heals 6 allies for XYZ every 2 sec for 14 seconds, or
    Holy Prism: 5 targets
    2. Holy Radiance: 1 + 5 targets
    3. Light of Dawn: 6 targets
    *.Daybreak (Proc): After Holy Radiance, cast 'Holy Shock' and 75% of the heal is divided evenly amount the raid.
    (i.e. 60k divided by 10 targets = 6,000 a target... 60k divided by 25 targets = 2,400 a target).
    _________________________________________________________________________________

    Resto Shammy
    1. Healing Rain: Heals all targets in blanketed area, restoring XYZ health to allies in the area every 2 sec for 10 sec. Healing effectiveness starts to diminish for each player beyond 6.
    2. Healing Tide Totem:Summons a Water Totem with 10% of the caster's health at the feet of the caster for (11 sec) sec. The Healing Tide Totem pulses every 2 sec, healing the 5 (12 in 25 player instances) most injured party or raid members within 40 yards for XYZ.
    3. Healing Stream Totem: Summons a Water Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster for 15 sec that heals the TWO most injured party or raid member within 40 yards, every 2 sec.
    4. Chain Heal: Heals 1 + 3 targets.
    *. Ascendance: While in the form of a Water Ascendant, all healing done is duplicated and distributed evenly among all nearby allies.

    Mistweaver Monk
    1. Revival: Instantly heals all party and raid members within 100 yards for 69579-72159.
    2. Spinning Crane Kick: While channeling Spinning Crane Kick, you also heal all nearby injured allies for 2809 every 0.8 sec for 2 sec.
    3. Chi Wave: 7 targets
    4. Chi Torpedo: Heals all allies in your path (up to 3 times).
    *. Renewing Mist: Restores XYZ health every 2 sec for 18 sec; travels to the TWO closest nearby injured friendly targets within 20 yards.
    *. Uplift: Heals the targets with your Renewing Mist active.

    Holy Priest
    1. Divine Star: Everyone in it's path (twice) for XYZ, or
    Halo: Anyone within it's radius for XYZ , or
    Cascade: 7 targets
    2. Divine Hymn: Heals 5 (12 in 25 player instances) nearby lowest health friendly party or raid targets within 40 yards for XYZ every 2 sec for 8 sec, and increases healing done to them by 10% for 8 sec. The Priest must channel to maintain the spell.
    3. Circle of Healing: 5-6 targets
    4. Prayer of Healing: 5 targets
    *.Prayer of Mending: Heals a target and bounces up to 3-4 additional targets.

    Resto Druid
    1. Tranquility: Heals 12 nearby lowest health party or raid targets within 40 yards with Tranquility every 2 sec for 8 sec.
    (Tranquility heals for X plus an additional X every 2 sec over 8 sec. Stacks up to 3 times).
    2. Wild Growth: 5 targets for XYZ over 7 sec.
    3. Wild Mushroom Bloom: Causes your Wild Mushroom to bloom, healing all allies within 10 yards for XYZ.
    *.Swiftmend/Efflorecent: Heals a targets (that has a Hot) and then heals three of the most injured allies within 10 yards of the initial target every 1 sec for 7 sec.
    Last edited by Silverlust; 2013-10-02 at 06:00 PM.

  2. #2
    just to correct some wrong values:

    Healing Rain: only heals 6 people
    Spinning Crane Kick: only heals 6 People
    Chi Wave: max. 4 People

    The only rly annoying part is the 10 yards from Holy Radiance. This causes HR to only heal 4 people on Thok Heroic.

  3. #3
    I recall the time when Holy Paladins did not have any aoe heals.

    But yea, main reason i don't play my paladin as Holy is the utter lack of good AoE healing - feels like a cripple compared to a healer Priest.

  4. #4
    It's a problem in 25 more than 10. In 10 EF covers us pretty well for AoE, as can Prism.

    (It is depressing that Healing Rain heals for as much as our 1 min cooldown LH but that's the way it goes I guess)

  5. #5
    Aleksej89 - I agree... I actually enjoyed tank healing on my pally back in BC and WoLK when HPS wasn't as important.

    Figaro10- Oh- did Healing Rain, Spinning Crane Kick, and Chi Wave all get nerfed too? I copy and pasted those from 5.4 spells (possibly tool bar never got updated).

    Pasture- I agree... More of a problem in 25 man.

  6. #6
    Mechagnome
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    If you want strong AoE healing going EF is probably not your best bet, EF is strong for aura fights (Malkorok, Galakras Norushen) but if you want pure AoE healing, SH is what you want to go with, SH still dosent compete with a good disc priest but we can still do very competitive numbers on most fights.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    I recall the time when Holy Paladins did not have any aoe heals.

    But yea, main reason i don't play my paladin as Holy is the utter lack of good AoE healing - feels like a cripple compared to a healer Priest.
    The game has changed, you can't say "be happy with what you have, it's better than what you had" anymore.
    Last edited by Obsession; 2013-10-02 at 12:24 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Obsession View Post
    The game has changed, you can't say "be happy with what you have, it's better than what you had" anymore. But SH is pretty good now, you should try it; the range of HR is a problem.
    Personally I really like that paladins are less AoE oriented. It gives them focus and a completely different feel compared to the others.

    | Warrior Moderator | Protection Warrior Weakaura Group |

  9. #9
    They got changed because of game lag in high HPS fights like Megaera:

    "Several heals now function like smart heals, in which the 6 most injured friendly targets within range, and minor guardians are no longer targeted. Affected heals are Healing Rain, Holy Radiance, Holy Word: Sanctuary, Light's Hammer, and Spinning Crane Kick."

    Chi Wave jumps from player to enemy, so if you cast it on an player it jumps to the boss and back etc. so you can heal 4 people max with chi wave.

    EF can serve for aoe heal purposes but not for burst aoe only for sustained aoe.

  10. #10
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clampy View Post
    Personally I really like that paladins are less AoE oriented. It gives them focus and a completely different feel compared to the others.
    The problem with this is that if you don't have the healing output to compete with other classes, you won't be in the raid. Especially, in heroics where enrage timers are a factor first times through. This means raids bring less healers and more dps to cover.

    Edit: For 25s that is.
    Last edited by Verdell; 2013-10-02 at 02:40 AM.

  11. #11
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdell View Post
    The problem with this is that if you don't have the healing output to compete with other classes, you won't be in the raid.
    The statement you replied to is the problem. This whole "we want you to feel 'unique' so we'll make you the shittiest, that way you're unique in sucking" thing. Doesn't really work to make a good class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdell View Post
    Especially, in heroics where enrage timers are a factor first times through. This means raids bring less healers and more dps to cover. Edit: For 25s that is.
    Basically, my question: What do we do that any other class can't just do better? (or do just as well, then contribute more utility or even DPS, since you mentioned enrage timers)
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-10-02 at 03:13 AM.

  12. #12
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clampy View Post
    Personally I really like that paladins are less AoE oriented. It gives them focus and a completely different feel compared to the others.
    And that completely does not work in raiding today.

  13. #13
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    The statement you replied to is the problem. This whole "we want you to feel 'unique' so we'll make you the shittiest, that way you're unique in sucking" thing. Doesn't really work to make a good class.



    Basically, my question: What do we do that any other class can't just do better? (or do just as well, then contribute more utility or even DPS, since you mentioned enrage timers)
    Nothing, imo, and hence my response.

    I'm completely frustrated with the state of healing this xpac has gotten to. Anything that we can do, other specs can as well, and do it better.

    If they want to make healing niches, the way we are set up now is not the way to do it.

  14. #14
    I've been proposing this healing niche for a while: faster casts.

  15. #15
    When you talk about "AoE" you can also include a couple other things IMO:

    Glyph of Protector of the Innocent - 20% WoG/EF heal hits pally
    Combine that with Beacon and if you WoG a non-tank, you heal 3 people.

    Even without that glyph, which isn't that good obviously, Beacon is still a strong multi-target heal. I haven't found myself wanting more for AoE healing TBH. Daybreak seems very weak and the range on HR is awful, but in most fights that you AoE, you can also huddle up, at least ranged + melee. I know the other classes have stronger AoE, but that's OK because they don't have beacon (I guess mistwalkers have something like it with the statue thing).

    People wanting pallies to have more AoE better not complain with all healers are exactly the same.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post

    Basically, my question: What do we do that any other class can't just do better? (or do just as well, then contribute more utility or even DPS, since you mentioned enrage timers)
    I don't want to copy down all our utility spells because I know you know them, but here are some that I like:

    LoH
    HoSx2
    HoPx2
    4 cooldowns including HA (I have no idea how many other classes get)
    HoTs + shields (mastery) (priests do this better I suppose)

    If you look at WoL there are some fights like Dark Shaman that Pallies seem to dominate. Several ranked pallies on Spoils and Paragons and Immerseus too. Clearly druids and shaman are all over those rankings more than Paladins, but as long as we are on the rankings, I won't complain.
    Ret Paladin
    10/14H T16

  16. #16
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varabently View Post
    Glyph of Protector of the Innocent - 20% WoG/EF heal hits pally
    Combine that with Beacon and if you WoG a non-tank, you heal 3 people.

    I know the other classes have stronger AoE, but that's OK because they don't have beacon (I guess mistwalkers have something like it with the statue thing).
    Seriously... you're kidding right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Varabently View Post
    LoH, BoP, cooldowns, etc.
    LoH: Void Shift + DP, Life Cocoon, hell an NS greater heal all do that if not just better and without the 1 minute forbearance either. Also given its 10 minute CD and 1 minute debuff its actual raid use besides one "mulligan from bad" is actually quite limited.

    4 Cooldowns: Sadly most healers have a healer-unique throughput cooldown that beats all four of our cooldowns even if we use them together. Devotion Aura's effectiveness varies and even then a prot/ret paladin will bring it anyway. Once you have several adding more is just less and less return.

    Sac: All healers bring a "tank cooldown" and there is nothing unique except that a Paladin has to glyph for it to actually be usable (more or less mandatory in 25m raids if you actually want to use the ability in a fight with the amount of AoE going out) and talent for the two charges. Even with a glyph and talent spot wasted on the ability, other healers (non-glyphed/talented) CD's are still almost just as good, either offering more damage reduction or more uses.

    BoP: I will give you that this was quite effective earlier (although still a prot/ret will bring it) but this tier honestly there are only a handful of situations where it's actually usable. Many of the times it is usable it doesn't actually do anything that other healer CD's don't just do regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varabently View Post
    If you look at WoL there are some fights like Dark Shaman that Pallies seem to dominate.
    Right, whoever goes to the melee pile dominates, news at 11. Since anyone can heal the melee pile just as good (if not better with Healing Rain/DStar), sending them over would make them dominate just as good (if not better).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varabently View Post
    If you look at WoL there are some fights like Dark Shaman that Pallies seem to dominate. Several ranked pallies on Spoils and Paragons and Immerseus too. Clearly druids and shaman are all over those rankings more than Paladins, but as long as we are on the rankings, I won't complain.
    I thank you for linking me this site that I had no idea existed.

    If you look at "25 heroic" out of ~100 ranks you see ~3 paladins. Even on "10 heroic" arguably where paladins are supposed to "good" the numbers are still extremely small compared to the # of ranks there are.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-10-02 at 04:13 PM.

  17. #17
    From what I have seen paladins have pretty good stacked aoe healing and when people spread you can rely on EF and powerful instant casts that also beacon on the tank. Complaining about EF blanketing is similar to a druid complaining about rejuv blanketing.

  18. #18
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeons View Post
    From what I have seen paladins have pretty good stacked aoe healing and when people spread you can rely on EF and powerful instant casts that also beacon on the tank. Complaining about EF blanketing is similar to a druid complaining about rejuv blanketing.
    Rejuv is a core ability, EF is a talent and finisher.

    The problem is that Druids know that they will be Rejuv blanketing. It's been this way since the Resto Druid has been around. They have just been given more on top of that (WG, Mushrooms, Tranq, Efflo). Don't want to Rejuv spam, don't play a Druid.

  19. #19
    Stood in the Fire Obtuse's Avatar
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    I think you should separate the priest heals as some of those are not available to the discipline specialization. I have no access to Divine Hymn or Circle of Healing.

    Prayer of healing is party based, so unless you are close to your whole party often times you'll only heal 3 or 4 people instead of the full 5. And while Prayer of Mending can be a incredible spell, it can also be one of the most frustrating, especially when it gets stuck on a hunter pet.

    We all have our niches. Holy Palys are doing just fine.
    Obtuse and Obedient of Stormrage US

  20. #20
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    The question isn't what we have, it's who else has it that can do it better.

    Any hand spells can be done by a prot/ret. That's a fairly big niche that we lose out on because our output isn't as strong as other healing classes.

    LoH is a great ability, but the timing has to be almost flawless to make the most use of it.

    And even with all the CDs at our disposal, one Tranq/Hymn/Revival/Tide makes them obsolete and you've just wasted a CD.

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