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  1. #21
    Oh stop... Holy priests are OP now, deal with it.
    "The truth, is limitless in its range. If you drop a 'T' and look at it in reverse, it could hurt."

  2. #22
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obtuse View Post
    We all have our niches. Holy Palys are doing just fine.
    What niche do we have? I keep seeing this but I see no one actually saying what it is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obtuse View Post
    I think you should separate the priest heals as some of those are not available to the discipline specialization. I have no access to Divine Hymn or Circle of Healing.

    Prayer of healing is party based, so unless you are close to your whole party often times you'll only heal 3 or 4 people instead of the full 5. And while Prayer of Mending can be a incredible spell, it can also be one of the most frustrating, especially when it gets stuck on a hunter pet.
    You forgot to mention Spirit Shell, DA, and Halo/DS. Those account for most of the healing of a Disc and is keeping them very competitive this tier.

  3. #23
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obtuse View Post
    We all have our niches.
    That's fucking hilarious coming from a priest.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdell View Post
    You forgot to mention Spirit Shell, DA, and Halo/DS. Those account for most of the healing of a Disc and is keeping them very competitive this tier.
    SS is fine, DA just needs to be gutted, Halo/DS already are bad, add DA to both of them and that's the source of their "OP niche" that they have.

    Either the AoE cap needs to be reinserted to both abilities or they need to not proc DA.

  4. #24
    High Overlord Verdell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    SS is fine, DA just needs to be gutted, Halo/DS already are bad, add DA to both of them and that's the source of their "OP niche" that they have.

    Either the AoE cap needs to be reinserted to both abilities or they need to not proc DA.
    I love pointing out that DS does 3 times the healing of either of our level 90 talents and getting "and?" as a response. LOL

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    That's fucking hilarious coming from a priest.
    Oh come on.. How long did holy pallies crush holy priests in healing? For both PvE & PvP? A long ass time..

    We should get to have our time too..

    Fuckin' Whores of the light.

    Please try to remain on topic, and refrain from provoking other forum users. - Malthanis
    Last edited by Malthanis; 2013-10-02 at 06:20 PM.
    "The truth, is limitless in its range. If you drop a 'T' and look at it in reverse, it could hurt."

  6. #26
    1.) I really don't consider EF an AOE spell. We don't consider Druids Rejuv an AOE and they can cast it just as fast. Is it that EF lasts 30 secs that makes people think it's an AOE? I always think of EF as a HoT. If you compare it to a Monk's Renewing Mist, now Renewing Mist can be considered more of an AOE because the HoT spreads.

    2.) I agree- 25 mans use HP for LoD and choose Sacred Shield over EF for most new fights; 10 man choose EF for many fights. However, I do find that Sacred Shield works well in 10 man too. I especially liked using it in a Flex raid of 15 people. Anyways, I keep a shield on each tank and me the whole time.

    3.) I agree about Beacon, I will add it in the original post.

    4.) I agree that some guilds might start excluding a Holy Pally from being a core raider. It's not the person's fault that their #s are crap, it's that they can't compete with the other classes.

    If you look at Raid Bot 25 man normal, you will see Holy Pallys DO NOT STAND A CHANCE against other healers and Heals Per Sec are taken very seriously now a days. In a world of strong strong strong AOE healing is what is needed, Holy Pallys don't match up

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Immerseus...00000000111111
    *Keep in mind these (average) numbers are subject to change with incoming data:

    ~Immerseus - #1 Shammys 222K, #6 Pallys 163K.... (Difference of 39k heals per sec).
    ~Protectors - #1 Shammys 223K, #4 Pallys 180K.... (Difference of 43K heals per sec).
    ~Norushen - #1 Disc Priests 387K, #6 Pallys 262k.... (Difference of 115k heals per sec).
    ~Sha of Pride - #1 Shammys 182K, #4 Pallys 146K.... (Difference of 38k heals per sec).
    ~Galakras - #1 Shammys 202K, #4 Pallys 180K.... (Difference of 28k heals per sec).
    ~Iron Juggernaut - #1 Disc Priests 203K, #4 Pallys 169K.... (Difference of 34k heals per sec).
    ~Kor'Kron - #1 Shammys 160K, #4 Pallys 142K.... (Difference of 18k heals per sec).
    ~General - #1 Resto Druids 141K, #5 Pallys 126K... (Difference of 15K heals per sec).

    ~Malkorok - #1 Mistweaver Monks 392K, #5 Pally 270K.... (Difference of 122k heals per sec).
    ~Spoils of Panderia - #1 Pallys 128K
    ~Thok the Blood Thirsty - #1 Disc Priests 270K, #6 Holy Pally 195K.... (Difference of 75K heals per sec).
    ~Seige of Blackfuse - #1 Disc Priests 155K, #5 Holy Pallys 128K.... (Difference 23K heals per sec).
    ~Paragon of the Klaxxi - #1 Disc Priests 124K, #3 Holy Pallys 113K.... (Difference of 11K heals per sec).
    ~Garrosh Hellscream - #1 Shammys 162K, #4 Holy Pallys 134K.... (Difference of 28K heals per sec).

    Looking at this data, you can see that 12 out of 14 bosses, Pallys fall into the bottom half for healing. 5 out of 14 bosses, Pallys fall into the bottom two for healing. 3 out of 14 bosses, Pallys are the lowest healer. 1 out of 14 fights (Spoils of Panderia) Pallys are the top healer. 2 out of 14 fights, Pallys are in the top half for healing.
    Last edited by Silverlust; 2013-10-02 at 05:44 PM.

  7. #27
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    /yawn

    Beacon of Light is NOT an AoE spell in the slightest, it is a single target healing spell which is more akin to Earth Shield, Lifebloom, or the Rapture PW:S.

  8. #28
    Voidspark- just wondering, do you heal in 10 mans, 25 mans, or flex primarily?? How does your HPS compare to other healers you work with in the raid?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I am not sure people know that some fights (like Norushen and Malkorok) other healing classes are beating holy pallys by about 100k heals per sec.

  9. #29
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverlust View Post
    Voidspark- just wondering, do you heal in 10 mans, 25 mans, or flex primarily?? How does your HPS compare to other healers you work with in the raid?
    25 heroic.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    I recall the time when Holy Paladins did not have any aoe heals.

    But yea, main reason i don't play my paladin as Holy is the utter lack of good AoE healing - feels like a cripple compared to a healer Priest.
    im unsubbed and don't have an opinion in this matter.

    but man I miss that. made paladin play style feel unique. miss holy light bombs of healing. .8 sec flash of light when it basically cost nothing, to group heal as fast as possible. made it feel challenging (at least to me)
    Quote Originally Posted by adam86shadow View Post
    I hear people say bring War back to World of Warcraft, well how about bringing World back to World of Warcraft

  11. #31
    Voidspark- eh, the post probably didn't pertain to you as much....
    Heroic 25 man: Execute it right the first time > Full knowledge of fight > Raid Awareness > Heals Per Sec.
    Normal 25 man: Raid Awareness > Heals Per Sec > Full knowledge of the fight > Execute it right the first time.

    Heals Per Sec probably means little to you

  12. #32
    Epic! Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varabently View Post

    If you look at WoL there are some fights like Dark Shaman that Pallies seem to dominate. Several ranked pallies on Spoils and Paragons and Immerseus too. Clearly druids and shaman are all over those rankings more than Paladins, but as long as we are on the rankings, I won't complain.
    We are dominating dark shaman?

    http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...haman/25H/hps/

    Try looking at something that isn't 10m. Most of the Paladin AOE complaints have to do how horribly we scale in 25m.

    You also mention stack healing. We aren't supposed to be top on stack healing and we are not. That brings the whole point that have no real niche that we are the best at.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverlust View Post
    1.) I really don't consider EF an AOE spell. We don't consider Druids Rejuv an AOE and they can cast it just as fast. Is it that EF lasts 30 secs that makes people think it's an AOE? I always think of EF as a HoT. If you compare it to a Monk's Renewing Mist, now Renewing Mist can be considered more of an AOE because the HoT spreads.
    Rejuv has been druids' main "aoe" spell for a while now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    I don't really get how Bloodlust fits Shamans...

    "I need to calm the elements, and through our sacred bond we will - wait, is that a fucking boss? I'M SO FUCKING ANGRY! I'M GOING TO KILL HIM! NO, WAIT! I'M GOING TO RAPE HIM THEN KILL HIM! WITH SPOONS! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEE!"

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverlust View Post
    1.) I really don't consider EF an AOE spell. We don't consider Druids Rejuv an AOE and they can cast it just as fast. Is it that EF lasts 30 secs that makes people think it's an AOE? I always think of EF as a HoT. If you compare it to a Monk's Renewing Mist, now Renewing Mist can be considered more of an AOE because the HoT spreads.

    2.) I agree- 25 mans use HP for LoD and choose Sacred Shield over EF for most new fights; 10 man choose EF for many fights. However, I do find that Sacred Shield works well in 10 man too. I especially liked using it in a Flex raid of 15 people. Anyways, I keep a shield on each tank and me the whole time.

    3.) I agree about Beacon, I will add it in the original post.

    4.) I agree that some guilds might start excluding a Holy Pally from being a core raider. It's not the person's fault that their #s are crap, it's that they can't compete with the other classes.

    If you look at Raid Bot 25 man normal, you will see Holy Pallys DO NOT STAND A CHANCE against other healers and Heals Per Sec are taken very seriously now a days. In a world of strong strong strong AOE healing is what is needed, Holy Pallys don't match up

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Immerseus...00000000111111
    *Keep in mind these (average) numbers are subject to change with incoming data:

    ~Immerseus - #1 Shammys 222K, #6 Pallys 163K.... (Difference of 39k heals per sec).
    ~Protectors - #1 Shammys 223K, #4 Pallys 180K.... (Difference of 43K heals per sec).
    ~Norushen - #1 Disc Priests 387K, #6 Pallys 262k.... (Difference of 115k heals per sec).
    ~Sha of Pride - #1 Shammys 182K, #4 Pallys 146K.... (Difference of 38k heals per sec).
    ~Galakras - #1 Shammys 202K, #4 Pallys 180K.... (Difference of 28k heals per sec).
    ~Iron Juggernaut - #1 Disc Priests 203K, #4 Pallys 169K.... (Difference of 34k heals per sec).
    ~Kor'Kron - #1 Shammys 160K, #4 Pallys 142K.... (Difference of 18k heals per sec).
    ~General - #1 Resto Druids 141K, #5 Pallys 126K... (Difference of 15K heals per sec).

    ~Malkorok - #1 Mistweaver Monks 392K, #5 Pally 270K.... (Difference of 122k heals per sec).
    ~Spoils of Panderia - #1 Pallys 128K
    ~Thok the Blood Thirsty - #1 Disc Priests 270K, #6 Holy Pally 195K.... (Difference of 75K heals per sec).
    ~Seige of Blackfuse - #1 Disc Priests 155K, #5 Holy Pallys 128K.... (Difference 23K heals per sec).
    ~Paragon of the Klaxxi - #1 Disc Priests 124K, #3 Holy Pallys 113K.... (Difference of 11K heals per sec).
    ~Garrosh Hellscream - #1 Shammys 162K, #4 Holy Pallys 134K.... (Difference of 28K heals per sec).

    Looking at this data, you can see that 12 out of 14 bosses, Pallys fall into the bottom half for healing. 5 out of 14 bosses, Pallys fall into the bottom two for healing. 3 out of 14 bosses, Pallys are the lowest healer. 1 out of 14 fights (Spoils of Panderia) Pallys are the top healer. 2 out of 14 fights, Pallys are in the top half for healing.
    I raid in a relatively top tier guild with an extremely competitive healing core and our holy paladin always does fine on meters, along with bringing heavy tank healing and the strongest spot healing of any healer.

    Also, you're linking raidbot standings...Sorry to say this, but they're literally worthless. There isn't enough to heal in 25 normal to be considered for anything important. As well, those rankings are based off of logs. Top logs are generated by raids underhealing or messing up encounters in what is essentially cheesing meters. When one raid requires 1mil HPS and the other needs 1.5mil HPS, the healers in the second raid will clearly be winning.

    Further, Paladins healing doesn't diminish greatly whenever you heal with other strong healers. Rsham, MW, holy priest...etc, all diminish greatly. So you're looking at healers in environments where they are carrying worse healers, instead of what really happens when the raiders know how to play their class.


    TLDR: Paladins are fine, they bring strong burst, fine sustained, and all of it in the form of single target spot healing and tank healing, which makes them the perfect counterbalance to every other healer bringing only spammed raid AoE heals.
    My suite of healers: (I'm totally FotM)
    MW (only class I'm any good at haha): Astråios
    Pally: Fateljr
    Druid (they're so fun! also efflo OP): Astrayos
    Sham (Stand in my puddle of frogs): Astraias
    Priest (Divine Star. 'nuff said.): Rèådÿ

  15. #35
    Epic! Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violent View Post
    Oh come on.. How long did holy pallies crush holy priests in healing? For both PvE & PvP? A long ass time..

    We should get to have our time too..

    Fuckin' Whores of the light.
    How long has disc been ruling pve and now pvp healing? And guess what last season holy priests dominated just as much in pvp and after 5.3 were damn near top in pve, only below discs and maybe monks.

    Paladins were what? Tied for first in pve with disc priests in 5.2 and then got nerfed and then nerfed again. And holy paladins in pvp, that is a joke. Leave this thread.

  16. #36
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Let's keep this on topic, and let's all remain calm, please.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdell View Post
    The question isn't what we have, it's who else has it that can do it better.

    Any hand spells can be done by a prot/ret. That's a fairly big niche that we lose out on because our output isn't as strong as other healing classes.

    LoH is a great ability, but the timing has to be almost flawless to make the most use of it.

    And even with all the CDs at our disposal, one Tranq/Hymn/Revival/Tide makes them obsolete and you've just wasted a CD.
    TFT+SM, AS+GHW, and NS+HT do similar healing with a lower CD than LoH. LoH is an outdated ability and pretty much every class has something similar.

    The lack of actual CD is a huge problem, GoTAK is extremely weak compared to other giant CDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverlust View Post
    1.) I really don't consider EF an AOE spell. We don't consider Druids Rejuv an AOE and they can cast it just as fast. Is it that EF lasts 30 secs that makes people think it's an AOE? I always think of EF as a HoT. If you compare it to a Monk's Renewing Mist, now Renewing Mist can be considered more of an AOE because the HoT spreads.
    You should consider EF an AoE heal for a couple different reasons. SH/EF are in the same talent tier, and both should be considered AoE heals for the purpose of this conversation.
    Last edited by Obsession; 2013-10-02 at 06:35 PM.

  18. #38
    Here's the deal... while I agree on a lot of the points in this post(ie. our aoe being miserable compared to others), I have found a niche that I enjoy. Now don't mob me when I say this and make sure you read the whole thing. I hope I can articulate myself well enough. It's the "tank healer" niche. What I mean by that isn't straight up tank healing, it's the reactionary play. The ability we have to save the people that just took the "big hit"/"gonna die"/"oh shizz" damage is more consistent that any other healer right now. We have the most reliable on demand instant cast heals w/ shock and HoPo heals(ef/lod).

    I should explain that I am going for heavy haste currently to mesh with this play style I am talking about. I have just under a 5 second shock cd(more infusion opportunities) and my casts are faster. Combining faster radiance, more infusion chances, and a shorter cd shock gives me a lot of HoPo generation which provides me with even more HoPo instant casts. I just can't stand the mastery build and how slow it feels. I understand that mastery in the long run will give me less wasted throughput on the inevitable over healing, but my guild has a REALLY strong disco right now and with mastery build I just feel like a watered down version of that. The consistent raid damage can obviously be taken care of significantly better by the other healers in my group. I am there to make sure that dude that was just about to die doesn't. With this play style I still seem to keep up with the healers in my group who I should mention are the best I've ever personally healed with by a long shot. Very rarely am I on the bottom of the meters if that something that you care about, but it wouldn't really matter as long as bosses are dieing.

    With that said, us hpallies do indeed need some help and a bit of change. As said before our utility is a bit lack luster and the decent utility we do bring can be brought by any pally spec. Also, the whole idea of me having to radiance as my HoPo generating filler just doesn't feel right. They should allow divine light to also generate a holy power when used on anyone as it costs the same as radiance and has the same cast time(I feel like that's a no brainer). Regen is another issue. I just always found it odd we went from the class that didn't have to worry about regen with gemming pure int(mana pool) combined with plea, too the class that has one of the worst regens currently. I also find it funny that back in BC they didn't think the crit regen was a proper way to handle regen and took it away only to give it to shammies and monks.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlatedPriest View Post
    but man I miss that. made paladin play style feel unique. miss holy light bombs of healing. .8 sec flash of light when it basically cost nothing, to group heal as fast as possible. made it feel challenging (at least to me)
    No joke. I'd say my favorite version of hpally was in wrath, going full int and haste. Having that 1 second cast holy light and 100% beacon was a blast. Machine gunning out those holy lights WAS our aoe.

    This is just my two cents on the matter.
    Last edited by Ospreyozh; 2013-10-02 at 07:30 PM.

  19. #39
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdell View Post
    I love pointing out that DS does 3 times the healing of either of our level 90 talents and getting "and?" as a response. LOL
    In a vacuum, that in and of itself isn't the issue because your class need not be based around 90 talents (or they could be a key ability), etc.

    The real problem is when in stacked (star) and loosely spread (halo) in 25m raiding, those two abilities become disproportionately good to the point where just using it on CD alone (and doing NOTHING else) almost allows you to match a healer doing his full proper mana-intense rotation, if not actually beating them.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Nickflip View Post
    No joke. I'd say my favorite version of hpally was in wrath, going full int and haste. Having that 1 second cast holy light and 100% beacon was a blast. Machine gunning out those holy lights WAS our aoe.

    This is just my two cents on the matter.
    Definitely agree that holy in Wrath was awesome. HL and beacon made us incredible spot and tank healers. We still kind of are, but the raids demand a bit more from us now.

    Paladin AoE healing right now does look rather poor for 25. HR, LoD, and LH all need to scale up to 12 in 25 man. I doubt there would be lag issues even with mastery working on HR and LoD since they no longer target guardian creatures. Prism could probably use a bit of a boost as well if it's to be competitive there.

    Priest 90's are just... Ugh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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