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  1. #61
    They really need to do something to make us competitive with AoE healing, or it's just going to get worse. Yes, this is primarily an issue in 25 man raids, but they can't leave us floundering at the risk of having Hpals "too good" in 10 mans.

    My guild was short on the enrage timer on Heroic Norushen last night by a significant amount - too much to just tweak how many DPS get purified by what point, etc, and too much to just "play better." So what was the solution? Sit the holy paladin. I got sat so they could bring in another DPS and they would just 4 heal it. They didn't kill it, and I think we're going to go back to 5 healing on Sunday when we go back in (we'll have one of our best DPS who was missing last night), but it's still asinine that I'm so useless they'll try to 4 heal an encounter with extremely high aoe damage instead of keep me in there.

    I'm still seeing the word "niche" being thrown around a lot in regards to holy paladins. What is our niche? Can somebody actually come up with a real answer for this? It's certainly not AoE raid healing. And, our toolkit has changed so much since Wrath that we're not even the best tank healers out there. That was our spotlight, and now we're no longer in it. Yes, we CAN tank heal, but I still wouldn't consider that our "niche" since we don't excel at it. I end up tank healing most of our fights, for the sole reason that nobody else does, and even trying to AoE heal (when I'm rolling with 2 RShams and a Holy Priest) is dumb since it's so lackluster.

    What do holy paladins excel at right now, that other healers aren't doing better and more effectively? Nothing? Awesome.

  2. #62
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    Healing is another beast. It's very possible to overheal a player, and we even have the (very unreliable) legendary cloak proc centered on that now. The issue is that overhealing doesn't tend to make the fight shorter nor does it normally offer increased chances at surviving. It's simply not effective or useful, much like doing cleave damage on a group isn't useful if killing one results in the others going back up to full health. It's meter whoring at that point... Granted, sometimes the HPS is nice to know for burst and such, but if you're doing enough healing to keep everyone alive then shooting for more HPS is just meter whoring again until you're at a point where you can drop a healer for another DPS or something.
    To a point, but not necessarily true that all you need is "bare minimum" to keep everyone up. That's why meters are, to some degree, important when it comes to measuring throughput.

  3. #63
    The Lightbringer Simulacrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    One of the issues with comparing DPS and healing is that there can almost always be more DPS that gets put to good use since things can die faster. Overkill is fairly meaningless since it's not possible to DPS more once something's dead.

    Healing is another beast. It's very possible to overheal a player, and we even have the (very unreliable) legendary cloak proc centered on that now. The issue is that overhealing doesn't tend to make the fight shorter nor does it normally offer increased chances at surviving. It's simply not effective or useful, much like doing cleave damage on a group isn't useful if killing one results in the others going back up to full health. It's meter whoring at that point.

    Granted, sometimes the HPS is nice to know for burst and such, but if you're doing enough healing to keep everyone alive then shooting for more HPS is just meter whoring again until you're at a point where you can drop a healer for another DPS or something.

    ...
    Doing more HPS potentially increases the raid's DPS through a variety of ways, the most obvious being by allowing you to bring less healers, but also through other ways like by reducing the chance that people will die to mistakes, allowing tanks to sacrifice mitigation for damage, letting the dps play more recklessly, letting everyone spend less time and GCDs helping keep themselves alive, allowing the healers themselves to dps more (the ones who can anyway), etc. You need to basically be dealing with oneshot mechanics for this not to be true, and even a lot of those can be overcome with shields.

    The reason to lower the number of healers at certain points isn't because more healing than (would ideally be) necessary isn't good, but because it's not as good as increasing the damage. Unless you're contriving to increase your HPS at the cost of the survival of the raid then it's not meter whoring; it's performing well.

  4. #64
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Not just that, but also more overall throughput can potentially save other healers from resorting to inefficient emergency heals which drastically lower your group's healing and damage (if DPS are forced to react to low health) overall.

  5. #65
    I personally haven't a problem with more or less hps differences. What drives me crazy ist the ridiculous DMG a monk healer and little less DMG a disci can do. In progress Raid you will encounter several times the situation that you just need a little more DPS and heal can be done from every healer. If you look at how much dmg a monk healer can do in burst phases thats just way over the Top, they can do 330k+ dps if heroism is active. For example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR8g-iIsMUc you can see that the monk does ~15 miilion dmg in 45 seconds thats almost 3% of the boss hp. This differenec of dmg capabilities is just to much. Everthing else you can compensate through better cd timing or better play in general. But 300k dps noway.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Figaro10 View Post
    I personally haven't a problem with more or less hps differences. What drives me crazy ist the ridiculous DMG a monk healer and little less DMG a disci can do. In progress Raid you will encounter several times the situation that you just need a little more DPS and heal can be done from every healer. If you look at how much dmg a monk healer can do in burst phases thats just way over the Top, they can do 330k+ dps if heroism is active. For example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR8g-iIsMUc you can see that the monk does ~15 miilion dmg in 45 seconds thats almost 3% of the boss hp. This differenec of dmg capabilities is just to much. Everthing else you can compensate through better cd timing or better play in general. But 300k dps noway.
    This is why I feel sorry for holy paladins, at least if my healing is being shit on I can go damage mode and do a respectable amount of DPS:

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-yu...?s=8554&e=9052

    That's 63 million damage pumped out just from regular fistweaving, in BiS gear and cleave with a pair of amplification trinkets?

    http://bestmonk.eu/simc/ZS_3_FW.html

    Mind you on this simulation zen sphere is broken, so you can easily add another 30k DPS or so to that figure for possibilities.
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  7. #67
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figaro10 View Post
    I personally haven't a problem with more or less hps differences. What drives me crazy ist the ridiculous DMG a monk healer and little less DMG a disci can do. In progress Raid you will encounter several times the situation that you just need a little more DPS and heal can be done from every healer. If you look at how much dmg a monk healer can do in burst phases thats just way over the Top, they can do 330k+ dps if heroism is active. For example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR8g-iIsMUc you can see that the monk does ~15 miilion dmg in 45 seconds thats almost 3% of the boss hp. This differenec of dmg capabilities is just to much. Everthing else you can compensate through better cd timing or better play in general. But 300k dps noway.
    Not to mention during low raid damage phases disc and monk can still contribute, hell, even shaman can do something by having their fire ele attack instead of empower. Or druids with their 90 talent can contribute using DoC. Or Holy Priest with Damage Chakra if timed well.

    We pretty much can sit there and do nothing, with absolutely zero options. We can't even help heal by stacking a mastery shield on the raid anymore thanks to the "brilliant" 5.4 changes.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Not to mention during low raid damage phases disc and monk can still contribute, hell, even shaman can do something by having their fire ele attack instead of empower. Or druids with their 90 talent can contribute using DoC. Or Holy Priest with Damage Chakra if timed well.

    We pretty much can sit there and do nothing, with absolutely zero options. We can't even help heal by stacking a mastery shield on the raid anymore thanks to the "brilliant" 5.4 changes.
    That's not true, we get to spam Denounce and prevent the boss from critting. /sarcasm

    Also another reason why I dropped out of 25 man raiding into 10 man, saw this coming a long time ago when they decided to remove DR off lvl 90 priest talents.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Not to mention during low raid damage phases disc and monk can still contribute, hell, even shaman can do something by having their fire ele attack instead of empower. Or druids with their 90 talent can contribute using DoC. Or Holy Priest with Damage Chakra if timed well.

    We pretty much can sit there and do nothing, with absolutely zero options. We can't even help heal by stacking a mastery shield on the raid anymore thanks to the "brilliant" 5.4 changes.
    No resto druid takes DoC though except on farm fights with not much healing needed. But at that point might as well go moonkin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    I don't really get how Bloodlust fits Shamans...

    "I need to calm the elements, and through our sacred bond we will - wait, is that a fucking boss? I'M SO FUCKING ANGRY! I'M GOING TO KILL HIM! NO, WAIT! I'M GOING TO RAPE HIM THEN KILL HIM! WITH SPOONS! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEE!"

  10. #70
    I think of it as this simple:

    Since all healer specs can perform good single-target/tank healing - then all healer specs must perform just as well at AoE/Raid healing (both spread and stacked).

    If a healer spec can't perform good AoE healing - why would you ever bring them?
    Instead just take that Priest/Druid and they can perform ANY kind of healing with ease.
    Last edited by Aleksej89; 2013-10-06 at 11:14 AM.

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