I just realized the horror of Paragons on LFR...

[IKT]

Many of us have been struggling on Nazgrim on LFR, right?

now, imagine having to fight 9 miniature nazgrims, each similar in complexity to the real thing, with 3 of them up at the same time, and the entire fight lasting 3X as long... and that with an unorganized and often underperforming group.

I think it'll be hell. or will they adapt it to the average skill level of the LFR player?

Lets put it this way, Blizzard can build the biggest bomb in the world, that destroys universes, but if they tune the damage down so it hits like a wet noodle, LFR will still probably wipe on it... wait what

[NeverStop]

Err, you do 80k dps in 470-475 gear. You do 110-120k in 496. At least that's been my experience with single target fights with no damage buffs/debuffs. LFR was tuned on the PTR where everyone's ilvl was forcibly set to 496.

As for paragons themselves, I figure they'll be about as hard as the council of elders in ToT (not hard.) The difficulty of council fights are the vast array of abilities they have, but those spells can't be very deadly in LFR mode so you end up with them being more or less ignorable. As long as you have one guy with half a brain marking kill targets, you should be fine.

I personally envision more issues on Thok with people leading the dino through a clumped up raid. Chomp chomp chomp.

Injection is gonna be pretty funny on LFR Paragons. In LFR I've seen Prot Pallies with under 20% SoTR uptime, BrMs that don't know Guard and Elusive Brew even exist, and other terrible terrible tanks.

[kaiadam]

You're assuming people in lfr have enchants and gems and optimal dps rotations. Which, for the most part, they do not.

I'm assuming nothing, I merely pointed out dps numbers close to the theoretical maximum for those ilvls, from personal experience raiding at those same ilvls. Considering that we're a couple tiers beyond that with solid buffs all-around to nearly every spec plus the legendary metagem and cloak which make more than ilvl contributions to your dps, those are at least 5-10% underestimated. I was replying to such statements as:

have the gear to put out maybe 65-80k in ideal conditions

even if they are a superhero of a player

[Mamut]

I see so many threads about LFR being horrible in SOO and I feel so special right now. Im doing LFR every week and I have plenty of fun here. Never wiped more then 2-3 on boss. Fights are fun, even when someone struggle with dps we still kiling bosses.

Im so lucky or you all just exaggerate??

[clevin]

I see so many threads about LFR being horrible in SOO and I feel so special right now. Im doing LFR every week and I have plenty of fun here. Never wiped more then 2-3 on boss. Fights are fun, even when someone struggle with dps we still kiling bosses.

Im so lucky or you all just exaggerate??

While Im sure there's some exaggeration, think about it... you're wiping 2-3x on these bosses. Now, put yourself in, well, my position. There's not a lot of loot in LFR for me. I can spend 2-3 hours per LFR wing or I can join a flex raid and spend probably less time or, even if I spend the same time, I get 540 gear which IS an upgrade. I don't have to wonder why 10-15 of the DPS are doing half the DPS that they should.

Now, which would you do?

[bals]

Paragons is going to be terrible
same with spoils. I see lots of griefing/trolling in spoils. Some scumbag is gonna run around and open every box...

[Mamut]

While Im sure there's some exaggeration, think about it... you're wiping 2-3x on these bosses.

But Im not wipping on every boss, most time we one shoot now and after few feeks this will be easy. So yes, I call BIG exaggeration.

[Axelond]

I don't really understand Ive done this fight 3 times now on 10 man normal and all I have ever done on this fight is Heal, stand in a aim thingy, ehm pop lust when poisoned mind spawns? boss dies GG

[Normie]

The problem with LFR is that it's way overtuned for a LFR group in ilvl496, people are genuinely expecting over 100k dps from people who have the gear to put out maybe 65-80k in ideal conditions, this isn't perfectly optimised and catered to the class Ilvl496 it is often badly optimised, often ungemmed and unenchanted and often including 3 stat timeless items that aren't much better than ilvl463 5man gear. You take a player with timeless 496 3 stat items with the wrong stats, no reforging, enchants, gemms and screwed up hit/exp caps and you will be lucky if you see them going above 70k dps even if they are a superhero of a player.

The issue with LFR is that it is just overtuned for the entry requirements. Wing 1 is easy and so for the most part doesn't cause much issue, but wing 2 is much harder and the only reason most groups get through is because of overgeared people outweighing the undergeared. And yeah, it's only going to get much much worse further on in the instance.

The Ilvl requirement needs to be raised, because timeless 496 gear is often absolutely horrid.

I agree with the problem here: Juggernaut, Dark Shaman, and Nazgrim have a whole lot of health for a group with unoptimized ~500 gear to be tackling. I'm not sure that raising the ilevel requirement is a legit fix, because it would have to be something closer to 510 or even 515 for groups to be comfortable.

[Redpanda]

Pretty much this. Flex is definately the way to go for the casual yet skilled raider. It almost feels like blizzard is pourposely pushing away people who use it as means to gear into normals. Frankly with plenty of people willing to forgo LFR all together with the introduction of flex i can only see LFR going into a tailspin with its eventual crash and burn.

I agree with the onset of flex its going to transition people that normally did lfr to just doing flex or finding time for normals my guild we do flex on Mondays with the people that only pvp and thy had a blast the mechanics are a little more forgiving so it makes it so they learn and don't get lynched for failing. Had a few of them say hey aren't doing lfr again. Flex makes for a good setting to get into raiding. Lfr is looking worse and worse. Shit the gear that drops from flex even has he look of the ones from normal if I remember right

[Normie]

Err, you do 80k dps in 470-475 gear. You do 110-120k in 496. At least that's been my experience with single target fights with no damage buffs/debuffs. LFR was tuned on the PTR where everyone's ilvl was forcibly set to 496.

I don't think that the reason that the majority of players in Siege LFR are in the 50-80k range is that they are all just terrible. It happens with every class and with the majority of players in every LFR. A more likely explanation is that 50-80k (before determination) is what the gear is reasonably capable of.

[mistahwilshire]

I'll call out on this and say that I have yet to ever see someone deliberately die so they can AFK. I have never seen anyone who feels they "deserve purples" for paying $15 per month. I've seen people that need improvement, sure, but never anyone like this mythical "whining entitled casual" that expects loot for no work at all and wants to AFK through easymode raids.

Idk about this entitled purples or whatever nonsense but I've seen literally dozens upon dozens of people run in to things and die as early as possible on purpose.

[Deleted]

I don't think that the reason that the majority of players in Siege LFR are in the 50-80k range is that they are all just terrible. It happens with every class and with the majority of players in every LFR. A more likely explanation is that 50-80k (before determination) is what the gear is reasonably capable of.

Or, they are just all terrible. 50k dps is not even remotely close to reasonable. We expected 70-80k single target from raiders when we were still in blue gear. Granted that was with flask and pot, so maybe 55-65k is what is reasonable in mostly 463 blue gear. Siege LFR has a 496 requirement, below 100k is low, but if your gear is terribly itemized, I guess 80-120k is reasonable in 496 gear, depending on the itemization on your gear and what pieces you have high/low item level on.

[Deleted]

Err, you do 80k dps in 470-475 gear. You do 110-120k in 496. At least that's been my experience with single target fights with no damage buffs/debuffs. LFR was tuned on the PTR where everyone's ilvl was forcibly set to 496.

As for paragons themselves, I figure they'll be about as hard as the council of elders in ToT (not hard.) The difficulty of council fights are the vast array of abilities they have, but those spells can't be very deadly in LFR mode so you end up with them being more or less ignorable. As long as you have one guy with half a brain marking kill targets, you should be fine.

I personally envision more issues on Thok with people leading the dino through a clumped up raid. Chomp chomp chomp.

This just made me laugh so hard lol. I can imagine Billy boy running the mad Dino straight into the raid and just goes omnom on everyone lololol.

[Drayarr]

They just need to change SoO LFR iLvL entry to 515.

[Normie]

Or, they are just all terrible.

The fact that they're even in LFR makes them "better than average."

Blizzard made rotations semi-complex and added in things like interesting weapon and armor procs in order to add flavor and challenge for highly skilled players. Basically, they did it so that the best players could have more fun. But the tiny percentage (1%? 2%? 5%?) of players that are interested in using their abilities "optimally" are not the only people playing the game.

[Mamut]

Better to 550.

/sarcasm off

Not everyone need to overgear lfr to be able kill bosses. Not everything must be one shoot either.

[Deleted]

The fact that they're even in LFR makes them "better than average."

How do you figure? There are no requirements to LFR that reflects a players capability to play. As far as I can see, being in LFR does not mean anything. You could be the top 1% of the playerbase in terms of skill or the bottom 1%.

[Normie]

but if your gear is terribly itemized, I guess 80-120k is reasonable in 496 gear, depending on the itemization on your gear and what pieces you have high/low item level on.

And I'm telling you, the gear is just not capable of it, and certainly not for all specs.

[cyqu]

Many of us have been struggling on Nazgrim on LFR, right?

now, imagine having to fight 9 miniature nazgrims, each similar in complexity to the real thing, with 3 of them up at the same time, and the entire fight lasting 3X as long... and that with an unorganized and often underperforming group.

I think it'll be hell. or will they adapt it to the average skill level of the LFR player?

not sure how paragons is 9 mini nazgrims.