Does this kill the Sunreaver conspiracy theory?

[Zaelsino]

The new visual guide has little sections dedicated to each of the main characters of the playable races. The BE one covers all of their leaders, and mentions the purge in both Rommath and Aethas's bios. Relevant bits:

A heavy proponent of neutrality, Aethas worked hard as a champion of the Horde's cause, eventually earning the Horde a place in Dalaran during the war in Northrend. Outgoing and enthusiastic, Aethas' eternal optimism was tested when the Horde began to openly declare war on the Alliance after the Cataclysm. Aethas holds Warchief Garrosh Hellscream just as much to blame for the purging of Dalaran as Jaina herself.

He holds no love for the Kirin Tor, showing little surprise when Lady Jaina Proudmoore threw the support of the once-neutral organization behind the Alliance. Rommath's true loyalty is to his people.

Bit curt, but still. This isn't player inferences or guesswork; it's Blizzard themselves saying both of them had pretty natural reactions to the purge, and I don't think it would be written so plainly if either was complicit or responsible for it. Optimistic, enthusiastic and outgoing champion of neutrality Aethas is actually an evil pawn of Garrosh? Rommath, whose loyalty is to his people first and foremost, would get them killed in an elaborate power play? I don't buy it. Especially not now.

[Aquamonkey]

Also in Lor'themar's bio on Blizzard's site:

The regent lord initiated conversations with King Varian Wrynn, hoping to rejoin the Alliance, but Garrosh sabotaged his diplomatic efforts by organizing a heist in Darnassus and focusing blame on the blood elves.

[wych]

Or perhaps Blizzard just didn't want to make it ridiculously obvious so that it's a point of debate and it's more of a shock later on down the line.

I think he was originally meant to be involved (Aethas) but they decided to change their mind post 5.2, but perhaps we'll never find out

[lokinrond713]

whats sunreaver conspiracy theory?

[wych]

whats teh sunreaver conspiracy theory?

That Aethas and other parts of Blood Elf command knew fully about Garrosh's plan in Dalaran, unless i'm very mistaken

[lokinrond713]

oh. well im of the opinion that aethas did a poor job at managing his subordinates.

[Zaelsino]

Or perhaps Blizzard just didn't want to make it ridiculously obvious so that it's a point of debate and it's more of a shock later on down the line.

I think he was originally meant to be involved (Aethas) but they decided to change their mind post 5.2, but perhaps we'll never find out

That's the thing though, the reveal wouldn't really mean anything at this point. The Kirin Tor are on the Alliance for good and the Sunreavers are folded into Silvermoon. The guy who abused their neutrality to steal the bell is ousted from power and the bell itself was a flukey piece of trash that corrupted a few Horde orcs and then got destroyed. It's kind of a non-issue at this point.

It would've admittedly been a good way to seed Aethas as an SoO boss, but that ship's sailed too.

[Falrinn]

That's the thing though, the reveal wouldn't really mean anything at this point. The Kirin Tor are on the Alliance for good and the Sunreavers are folded into Silvermoon. The guy who abused their neutrality to steal the bell is ousted from power and the bell itself was a flukey piece of trash that corrupted a few Horde orcs and then got destroyed. It's kind of a non-issue at this point.

It would've admittedly been a good way to seed Aethas as an SoO boss, but that ship's sailed too.

If anything I'm more surprised we didn't see Thalen Songweaver as a Siege of Orgrimmar boss since the guy was clearly a Garrosh loyalist from the very beginning. Due to the enormity of the raid, I wouldn't be surprised if he was a boss Blizzard seriously considered but ultimately rejected to keep the size to a doable length.

[Lynneiah]

oh. well im of the opinion that aethas did a poor job at managing his subordinates.

I agree. I doubt Garrosh would've been able to pull it off without any Sunreaver support, but a few of them loyal to the Horde first would've been able to do so without tipping of Sunreaver leadership.

[Deleted]

If anything I'm more surprised we didn't see Thalen Songweaver as a Siege of Orgrimmar boss since the guy was clearly a Garrosh loyalist from the very beginning. Due to the enormity of the raid, I wouldn't be surprised if he was a boss Blizzard seriously considered but ultimately rejected to keep the size to a doable length.

I'm holding out hope he'll be set up as like a personal nemesis to Jaina. That'd be pretty cool.

[Combatbutler]

Yes, it does!
Finally clear and undeniable proof that we had nothing to do with it.

Can we now kill Jaina as revenge for what she did to our people?

Jaina was still justified in the purge of Dalaran, the sunreavers were still compromised and couldn't remain in Dalaran.

[Talen]

Yes, it does!
Finally clear and undeniable proof that we had nothing to do with it.

Not really. The issue of how much Aethas knew and when he knew it is unanswered, as is the exact depth to which the Sunreavers were actually involved.

Can we now kill Jaina as revenge for what she did to our people?

You mean...offer them a chance to leave peacefully, imprisoning them when that offer was refused and bringing the full might of Dalaran down upon those who resisted arrest?

EJL

[Combatbutler]

That really justified the imprisonment and execution of so many innocents (Y)

Aethas made the mistake not to take Jaina's offer to leave the city, a single rogue magi in Dalaran could be devastating, so yes the purge is justified, it might be morally wrong but it doesn't change the fact that something like this had to be done. The sunreavers are also justified to retaliate on the Isle of Thunder, there is no ultimate right and wrong only choices and their consequences.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Kang just end it and stop demonizing Jaina. Seriously you're grasping at straws. Seriously it's fucking asinine that you want to kill someone over something minor but Garrosh? nobody bats an eye.

That really justified the imprisonment and execution of so many innocents

No, not really.

[Zaelsino]

If anything I'm more surprised we didn't see Thalen Songweaver as a Siege of Orgrimmar boss since the guy was clearly a Garrosh loyalist from the very beginning. Due to the enormity of the raid, I wouldn't be surprised if he was a boss Blizzard seriously considered but ultimately rejected to keep the size to a doable length.

Yeah, this bothered me. Songweaver would've made a great accomplice and "subtle" foil to Garrosh IMO, as a straight boss or a mini boss.

Not really. The issue of how much Aethas knew and when he knew it is unanswered, as is the exact depth to which the Sunreavers were actually involved.

Involved in what though? The bell's theft?

This is my biggest issue with players' interpretation of the purge. Not Aethas, not Jaina, not who's in the right or wrong, but the idea that HUGE swathes of the Sunreavers were somehow complicit in a covert espionage mission given to a catspaw by the Warchief of the Horde and his top general. It's unrealistic if not logically impossible.

[Combatbutler]

Involved in what though? The bell's theft?

This is my biggest issue with players' interpretation of the purge. Not Aethas, not Jaina, not who's in the right or wrong, but the idea that HUGE swathes of the Sunreavers were somehow complicit in a covert espionage mission given to a catspaw by the Warchief of the Horde and his top general. It's unrealistic if not logically impossible.

And that is the core problem even a handful of sleeper agents would be enough to cause serious mayhem, Aethas should have taken Jaina's first offer to leave the city with all of his people, it is incredibly unrealistic that many sunreavers were horde loyalists, but unfortunately only a few are necessary to threaten the entirety of Dalaran.

[Faroth]

Or perhaps Blizzard just didn't want to make it ridiculously obvious so that it's a point of debate and it's more of a shock later on down the line.

I think he was originally meant to be involved (Aethas) but they decided to change their mind post 5.2, but perhaps we'll never find out

Supposedly Aethas was meant to betray the Horde during Cataclsym, but Blizzard decided to only pull Benedictus out of the Alliance out of nowhere and make him a primary antagonist for Thrall (who has no connection or clue who the guy is which made it a pretty lame resolution for his betrayal).

Aethas keeps dodging the "traitor" stick it seems.



But more support to suggest Jaina, and us the players, did the wrong thing, screwed up royally, and shot the Alliance in the foot. Hell yeah, that's our fist pump moment!

/slap Kosak for that idiocy

(Note: I accept the Siege of Orgrimmar conclusion as the Alliance justice and bad ass scene we were expecting, but Blizzard has specifically stated Purge of Dalaran was somehow the Alliance "we're badass" moment which makes.....no sense whatsoever with all the reversal bullshit they threw in there immediately)

[Combatbutler]

Which would be an excellent argument if the city was ruled by Jaina and not the 'council of six'.

Who seemed to have approved later on, otherwise I doubt Jaina would still be their leader.

So if I go crazy, demand that you leave Lübeck and you refuse than I am in my right to kill you and imprison your family? Really?

It all depends on the circumstances, let's say the city is fiercely divided into three camps with two absolutely hating each other, and some members in my camp do something that potentially endangers not only my city but also half the planet, the least I would expect is to be arrested until proven innocent, that I did nothing wrong. If I don't have that choice and the odds are similar to that in Dalaran I would move heaven and earth to get my family out of there, most likely resisting and dying in the process, but I still understand why they did it, even though I would hate their guts for it.

Besides my family history taught me one thing if certain problems reach a certain level, better leave than be sorry afterwards.

Supposedly Aethas was meant to betray the Horde during Cataclsym, but Blizzard decided to only pull Benedictus out of the Alliance out of nowhere and make him a primary antagonist for Thrall (who has no connection or clue who the guy is which made it a pretty lame resolution for his betrayal).

Aethas keeps dodging the "traitor" stick it seems.

You are quite wrong actually, the supposed traitor would have been Rommath.

(Note: I accept the Siege of Orgrimmar conclusion as the Alliance justice and bad ass scene we were expecting, but Blizzard has specifically stated Purge of Dalaran was somehow the Alliance "we're badass" moment which makes.....no sense whatsoever with all the reversal bullshit they threw in there immediately)

It is not that different from horde badass moments, they are usually on morally shaking grounds as well.

[Aquamonkey]

Who seemed to have approved later on, otherwise I doubt Jaina would still be their leader.

Their approval doesn't count for much at that point because they only have Jaina's and Vereesa's biased account of events. It doesn't change the fact that Jaina overstepped her authority in doing the Purge without consulting any other Council members first and turning the reigns over to someone not even in the Kirin Tor.

Aethas might have done better for himself and his cause to have refused to be broken out so he could face the Council. After all, he didn't put up any kind of fight when Jaina took him into custody. But after seeing what was happening during the Purge, he might not have had much optimism in appealing to the rest of the Council.

[Talen]

That really justified the imprisonment and execution of so many innocents (Y)

Imprisonment? Once they refused to leave, Jaina really didn't have much choice. Contrary to your belief, the Sunreavers WERE involved and Jaina couldn't simply leave them to their own devices any more. If they wouldn't leave, if the guilty couldn't be separated, then imprisonment was the only other viable option available to Jaina, at least in the short term.

The game and the stories are clear on that: Nothing and none.

If only the answers were as clear to everyone else.

You know she didn't have the authority to make such a decision?

You realise, of course, that she did? That she did and does have the backing of the Six as well?

Involved in what though? The bell's theft?

Essentially. More importantly, how far in with the Horde were they? How many were agents of Garrosh?

This is my biggest issue with players' interpretation of the purge. Not Aethas, not Jaina, not who's in the right or wrong, but the idea that HUGE swathes of the Sunreavers were somehow complicit in a covert espionage mission given to a catspaw by the Warchief of the Horde and his top general. It's unrealistic if not logically impossible.

Huge swathes probably weren't. That's the tragedy. But those who were had proven themselves powerful enough to escape the purge that took place after Theramore when Aethas promsied he'd clean house. If Aethas failed that task once, could he be trusted a second time? Would a Second such screening work if the first didn't? But...with the Dalaran plunged into the war regardless of what it wanted - and Dalaran wasn't in the mood to overlook the Sunreavers actions this time...it also couldn't let the Sunreavers just wander around. Why? Because some of them, those powerful enough to pass the screening tests Aethas put in place before, were working for the Horde and would continue to do so.

They wouldn't leave. Aethas refused that offer. What options did Jaina have? And when some of those Sunreavers fought back and resisted arrest, that really escalated matters.

But yes - large parts of the purge storyline doesn't make sense. I have the feeling they changed course slightly half way through for some reason.

Supposedly Aethas was meant to betray the Horde during Cataclsym

That was Rommath.

I still like the idea that Rommath was behind the Sunreaver betrayal. That he worked behind Aethas' back in roder to get a measure of revenge against Dalaran who he blames - rightly or wrongly - for what happened during TFT.

That might explain Aethas' uncomfortable moment on IoT and still leave a degree of validity behind the revelation.

EJL