1. #1

    [Single Target] Incarnation + Hotw > Fon + Hotw

    us.battle.net/wow/en/character/barthilas/Owlet/simple

    Simmed Fon + Hotw : 254730.2
    Simmed Incarnation + Hotw : 255761.7

    This is my current gemming and reforges. From what i know, Fon + Hotw is suppose to give a higher DPS. Why is it when i simmed it. Incarnation + Hotw is giving a higher dps. Despite me testing it on the training Dummy, Incarnation + Hotw pull ahead by a average of about 5k dps.

    I would like to know if i am reforging/gemming correcting. Thanks alot in advance ;3

  2. #2
    Simmed in what with what settings. You're going to have to be more descriptive if you want to convince people of something. I also don't really understand this topic. "I get sim results that differ from what is considered the best, is my reforging correct?" I don't get it.

  3. #3
    What are you simming with?

  4. #4
    Bloodsail Admiral xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thumbi View Post
    us.battle.net/wow/en/character/barthilas/Owlet/simple

    Simmed Fon + Hotw : 254730.2
    Simmed Incarnation + Hotw : 255761.7

    This is my current gemming and reforges. From what i know, Fon + Hotw is suppose to give a higher DPS. Why is it when i simmed it. Incarnation + Hotw is giving a higher dps. Despite me testing it on the training Dummy, Incarnation + Hotw pull ahead by a average of about 5k dps.

    I would like to know if i am reforging/gemming correcting. Thanks alot in advance ;3
    FON allows for a certain amount of movement during a fight, INC is far less forgiving if you have to move at any stage, especially during those CDs. This is a bit like the 'crit past x% isn't as good (on paper arguement)' Yes, on a stand still fight, past x amount of SS wastage crit diminishes. However the extra dps crit provides whilst on the move, far outweighs its losses stood still.

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  5. #5
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    also plz don t tag your topic with [Single target] rather tag it with the spec you play such as [balance]
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    FON allows for a certain amount of movement during a fight, INC is far less forgiving if you have to move at any stage, especially during those CDs. This is a bit like the 'crit past x% isn't as good (on paper arguement)' Yes, on a stand still fight, past x amount of SS wastage crit diminishes. However the extra dps crit provides whilst on the move, far outweighs its losses stood still.
    How does it change Incarnations value if you are moving when it's not active? All of Incarnations effect is gained during the 30 second window when you use it. It doesn't matter if you have an empty talent slot or something for the last 2 and a half minutes.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by thumbi View Post
    us.battle.net/wow/en/character/barthilas/Owlet/simple

    Simmed Fon + Hotw : 254730.2
    Simmed Incarnation + Hotw : 255761.7

    This is my current gemming and reforges. From what i know, Fon + Hotw is suppose to give a higher DPS. Why is it when i simmed it. Incarnation + Hotw is giving a higher dps. Despite me testing it on the training Dummy, Incarnation + Hotw pull ahead by a average of about 5k dps.

    I would like to know if i am reforging/gemming correcting. Thanks alot in advance ;3

    Thumbi, I did see a couple things that you might want to look at further, one thing is glyph of might of ursoc, that is pretty useless for a balance druid, you would probably get more out of either glyph of rebirth, glyph of omens, or glyph of guided stars. Also ysera gift may be more overall gain than renew.

    Also I noticed you are using Jewelcrafting red 320 int gems as your two gems, however in other red slots you are choosing orange int / crit. I think you would most likely gain more overall benefit from using yellow jc gems for additional crit and put int/crit oranges in those red slots.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowa View Post
    Also I noticed you are using Jewelcrafting red 320 int gems as your two gems, however in other red slots you are choosing orange int / crit. I think you would most likely gain more overall benefit from using yellow jc gems for additional crit and put int/crit oranges in those red slots.
    I think that is because all JC gems gives a 160 increase, 320 total, and 320 int > 320 crit, since primary stats pretty much always wins over secondary on 1:1.
    "The secret of life is to appreciate the pleasure of being terribly, terribly deceived." -Oscar Wilde

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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Crysthalica View Post
    I think that is because all JC gems gives a 160 increase, 320 total, and 320 int > 320 crit, since primary stats pretty much always wins over secondary on 1:1.
    Except yellow gems give 480 not 320. So it's a 320 int vs 480 crit. In which case I believe crit is better.

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    Except yellow gems give 480 not 320. So it's a 320 int vs 480 crit. In which case I believe crit is better.
    He said a 160 increase. A normal crit gem is 320 crit, so you're gaining 160 crit by using the JC version of the gem. Likewise a normal int gem is 160 int, so you are gaining 160 int by using the JC version of the gem.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Alzu View Post
    How does it change Incarnations value if you are moving when it's not active? All of Incarnations effect is gained during the 30 second window when you use it. It doesn't matter if you have an empty talent slot or something for the last 2 and a half minutes.
    Because your treants are still able to do damage while you're moving vs. gaining no additional movement damage if you're incarnation.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzyb View Post
    Because your treants are still able to do damage while you're moving vs. gaining no additional movement damage if you're incarnation.
    That is completely irrelevant unless you need burst damage during that movement.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzyb View Post
    Because your treants are still able to do damage while you're moving vs. gaining no additional movement damage if you're incarnation.
    But the question was about Incarnation, not treants. Incarnation will be just as good if you stand still for 2min 30sec and then burst with Inc, compared to standing still for the whole time. FoN's value might change though with moving, haven't given that much thought yet.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Alzu View Post
    But the question was about Incarnation, not treants. Incarnation will be just as good if you stand still for 2min 30sec and then burst with Inc, compared to standing still for the whole time. FoN's value might change though with moving, haven't given that much thought yet.
    Unless you can't stand still for the 30 seconds of Incarnation then the point is irrelevant and makes no sense. It's called DPS for a reason, PER SECOND. You can do 50m damage in 1 minute or do 50m damage in 1 second then do nothing for 59 seconds, it has the same end result. The only issue in the Incarnation vs FoN debate is that Incarnation will reach it's peak DPS at certain fight lengths and reach it's lowest DPS at other fight lengths.

    0:30 fight: 100% uptime
    1:00 fight: 50% uptime
    2:00 fight: 25% uptime
    3:00 fight: 16% uptime
    3:30 fight: 28% uptime
    5:00 fight: 20% uptime
    7:00 fight: 21% uptime
    10:00 fight: 20% uptime
    etc

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Alzu View Post
    How does it change Incarnations value if you are moving when it's not active? All of Incarnations effect is gained during the 30 second window when you use it. It doesn't matter if you have an empty talent slot or something for the last 2 and a half minutes.
    Because often you will have to move when you pop Incarnation, reducing its value greatly.

  16. #16
    My point mainly was that incarnation is just as good compared to heavy movement to no movement if you can stand still during it. Its value doesn't change at all. Moving during it is a different story though, I agree.

  17. #17
    Bloodsail Admiral xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alzu View Post
    My point mainly was that incarnation is just as good compared to heavy movement to no movement if you can stand still during it. Its value doesn't change at all. Moving during it is a different story though, I agree.
    I disagree. Whilst you still make the most of your cooldown, on a heavy movement [singletarget] fight, fon will still come out ahead. Even if you can keep your feet planted for 100% of INC duration, the damage you do for the other 90% of the fight, will be alot lower than if you had treants spamming wrath whilst you move. Remember it is 100% possible to absolute min/max treants damage all with 100% movement.

    Vexxe of Old School.



    Streaming MOP raids live: (14/14HC 25Man SoO) and WOD Beta (Leveling and raid testing Heoric/Mythic) @ http://www.twitch.tv/vexxee

  18. #18
    Thanks for all the different feedbacks.

    Resimmed again with Heavymovement settings.

    Simmed Fon + Hotw : 212937
    Simmed Incarnation + Hotw : 211530

    [ Single target Heavy movement fights ]

    Im guessing i will be using Hotw + FON. Reason for doing so is because my trinkets have the same ICD. It will be easier for me to monitor the procs so i can min/max the treants damage.

    [ Single target light movement fights ]

    I will be using Hotw + Incarnation PROVIDED i get stand still 100% for the INC duration.

    Will someone try it out and post their results too ?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by earthwormjim View Post
    What are you simming with?
    Only lightmovement and Patchwerk. Just resimmed with Heavymovement

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    also plz don t tag your topic with [Single target] rather tag it with the spec you play such as [balance]
    Noted. Still new to the forums, starting new threads and all. Thanks for the guidance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowa View Post
    Thumbi, I did see a couple things that you might want to look at further, one thing is glyph of might of ursoc, that is pretty useless for a balance druid, you would probably get more out of either glyph of rebirth, glyph of omens, or glyph of guided stars. Also ysera gift may be more overall gain than renew.

    Also I noticed you are using Jewelcrafting red 320 int gems as your two gems, however in other red slots you are choosing orange int / crit. I think you would most likely gain more overall benefit from using yellow jc gems for additional crit and put int/crit oranges in those red slots.
    JC yellow gem give me 480 Crit.
    JC red Gem give me 320int.
    JC red gems give more DPS, that is why i use JC red gems.

    Stat weights for Int : 1
    Crit : 0.56

    So JC red gem give 320 > JC yellow is only 268.8
    Last edited by thumbi; 2013-10-02 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Added stat weights

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    I disagree. Whilst you still make the most of your cooldown, on a heavy movement [singletarget] fight, fon will still come out ahead. Even if you can keep your feet planted for 100% of INC duration, the damage you do for the other 90% of the fight, will be alot lower than if you had treants spamming wrath whilst you move. Remember it is 100% possible to absolute min/max treants damage all with 100% movement.
    Well, I guess you can interpret my post so that I was indirectly talking about FoN in it. I didn't mean to even refer to them in it though.

    But if I get into this topic of Inc vs. FoN during heavy movement, I still don't understand why would Incarnation lose its value when moving outside of cooldowns. How does it make incarnation worse at all? Yes, you might get 100% out of FoN during movement, but you get 100% of Incarnation as well.

    As most people have misunderstood what I've been saying, I'll point out that I'm still taking about standing still while Incarnation is up and only moving otherwise.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Alzu View Post
    Well, I guess you can interpret my post so that I was indirectly talking about FoN in it. I didn't mean to even refer to them in it though.

    But if I get into this topic of Inc vs. FoN during heavy movement, I still don't understand why would Incarnation lose its value when moving outside of cooldowns. How does it make incarnation worse at all? Yes, you might get 100% out of FoN during movement, but you get 100% of Incarnation as well.

    As most people have misunderstood what I've been saying, I'll point out that I'm still taking about standing still while Incarnation is up and only moving otherwise.
    After rereading the part of the post you were questioning, I'll come back and agree with you that if you get 100% turret damage out during the Inc cooldown, it will not diminish the talent at all compared to FoN. FoN is not on the GCD, so it's not like you have an extra spell to cast during movement. You're casting the exact same spells while moving, and your treants are casting the same whether you're standing still or moving, giving you no extra benefit vs movement while Inc is on cooldown. The only thing that should separate these two talents in this scenario is simply one is more powerful than the other.

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