Page 1 of 3
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #1

    Subtetly openings

    I'm planning to try out sub on today's reset and was wondering what the most optimal opening + starting rotation might be.
    Do we get snd up with the first 2 premed cp and then garrote, ambush, ambush, evis then maybe hemo if it still benefits from MoS buff? With this it would mean that both SnD and garrote would end around 18 secs, meaning that if I use a dance after the first 10 sec FW then I would definitely have to "waste" one of the evises on an SnD during FW uptime.
    Yes I know I will definitely have to refresh snd and apply rupture during the possible 40 seconds of fw uptime but theoretically is it better to let's say, use SB after the initial 10 seconds of FW, refresh SnD, apply rupture then use dance so the last ambush still benefits from the added SB combo points, and then go a full 30 secs with FW practically just finishing with eviscerates?

  2. #2
    I'm going to assume you're running Subterfuge since you mentioned opening with Garrote -> Double Ambush. Personally with Subterfuge I open Garrote -> Ambush -> SnD -> Hemo -> Backstab -> Rupture. Hemo with its DoT is stronger than Backstab and should be higher priority when the DoT is falling off/has fallen off. I believe with the glyph you can open Hemo rather than Garrote as well, since I'm pretty sure Hemo has higher DPE than Garrote does, although your first Hemo won't be SV-buffed if you do so. You should have enough time with the extra stealth duration from Subterfuge that you should be able to get the Rupture up before MoS falls off, which isn't too important but it's better than not opening with an MoS-buffed Rupture. If you want to avoid weaving ShD and SB together for some reason, it's better to save SB until you have 10 seconds left on ShD CD so you can get that first ambush from ShD to be SB buffed. If you order it ShD first then SB as ShD falls off, you lose the benefit from that FW with autoattacks. Personally I've found better results just using them together when they're both off CD as that means more Eviscerates during ShD/FW.

    You don't have to Rupture during FW, since Rupture is a bleed it is unaffected by armor. However you should try to time your Vanishes so that you can reapply an MoS-buffed Rupture in the time you'll have it up after Vanishing.

  3. #3
    Hmm I think hemo should be used after garrote (as iirc the dot is based on the damage the strike does and with FW up that's a lot more). How high of a priority does rupture have during FW? I know it doesn't benefit from the arpen debuff, but is it worth postponing it for an evis during FW or it should be up literally all the time? Also is it really worth applying rupture while garrote is ticking?

  4. #4
    In my opinion, Rupture is always highest priority if it's not up, especially if you don't have the Hemo SV glyph. An average Rupture will almost always outdamage a crit Evis even when Find Weakness is up.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychowolf View Post
    In my opinion, Rupture is always highest priority if it's not up, especially if you don't have the Hemo SV glyph. An average Rupture will almost always outdamage a crit Evis even when Find Weakness is up.

    I find that hard to believe, My avg crits for evis under FW is 400k-1.2 mil depenting on trinket procs/pot

    but yeah keep rupture up it still does alot of dmg.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychowolf View Post
    In my opinion, Rupture is always highest priority if it's not up, especially if you don't have the Hemo SV glyph. An average Rupture will almost always outdamage a crit Evis even when Find Weakness is up.
    I don't think rupture will be doing more than ~1.4 million dmg evis crits under pots/trinket/FW. Not saying rupture isn't worth it, but maybe not during the crazy buff/proc situation.

  7. #7
    I don't think Rupture is even worth using now with the new Hemo glyph, the only reason you used Rupture before was to keep the debuff up which you cover much more easily and energy/CP-efficient now.

  8. #8
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    777
    I usually go with ambush > rupture > ambush, although I'm mostly playing sub to get used to playing it on siegecrafter's conveyor belt, so this opener might not be the best for sustained damage as much as it seems to work for "burst".

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Celesteh View Post
    I don't think Rupture is even worth using now with the new Hemo glyph, the only reason you used Rupture before was to keep the debuff up which you cover much more easily and energy/CP-efficient now.
    It's more damage per cast outside of FW. Still worth using, but I'm not convinced it is needed during the opening phase of a fight where FW is up for a very long time.

  10. #10
    cotech for that, use hemo glyph and open with premed onthe weapon, snd whiles it still unreachable then open with ambush hemo ambush ev is then continue going to town

  11. #11
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    777
    Quote Originally Posted by badgersmashr View Post
    cotech for that, use hemo glyph and open with premed onthe weapon, snd whiles it still unreachable then open with ambush hemo ambush ev is then continue going to town
    I usually have SnD from the boss (targeting it while waiting downstairs and getting some stacks from HAT). But then also, a 3-4 point rupture does more damage than a hemo doesn't it? and costs less energy I'm pretty sure?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Cotech View Post
    I usually have SnD from the boss (targeting it while waiting downstairs and getting some stacks from HAT). But then also, a 3-4 point rupture does more damage than a hemo doesn't it? and costs less energy I'm pretty sure?
    Well you gotta factor in CPs used aswell, and a hemo during FW will hit harder and therefor leave a stronger DOT aswell, and give you CPs instead of consume 3-4 of them, which we can assume would be 3-4 CPs taken from a Eviscerate you could use while FW is up.
    Rupture on the other hand gains nothing from being used during Find Weakness afaik, while both Hemo, the hemo DOT, and Eviscerate does.

  13. #13
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    777
    Quote Originally Posted by Shenjin View Post
    Well you gotta factor in CPs used aswell, and a hemo during FW will hit harder and therefor leave a stronger DOT aswell, and give you CPs instead of consume 3-4 of them, which we can assume would be 3-4 CPs taken from a Eviscerate you could use while FW is up.
    Rupture on the other hand gains nothing from being used during Find Weakness afaik, while both Hemo, the hemo DOT, and Eviscerate does.
    I guess, but the hemo dot in general is so weak so not sure if it'll be worth it. Guess I'll try it today :P

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Cotech View Post
    I guess, but the hemo dot in general is so weak so not sure if it'll be worth it. Guess I'll try it today :P
    Yeah Im not arguing that Hemo would do more damage, just the loss of 3-4 CPs during Find Weakness, that´s almost a full eviscerate, which benefits a lot from FW.
    Hemo only costs 5 more energy and gives you additional CPs, so it´s not rupture vs hemo, it´s really rupture vs eviscerate, during FW.

    when opening you can keep up a fairly decent streak of FW, and during FW eviscerate will be more damage for 5CPs then rupture (not 100% sure on that)
    So if that´s correct, it seems to me that rupture isnt really going up until after FW goes down, because up to that point sacrificing a eviscerate will be less damage.

  15. #15
    not sure if 100% optimal but my opener goes as follows

    macro'ed premed+hemo(w/ glyph of HV), ambush, snd, ambush, ambush/backstab, evisc ---------> 5pt rupture

    not saying what im doing is correct, and i understand its normals, but i have quite a few top 10 sub rankings for 10m. some 12 and 14th's, but at the same time there are a few asia players ranked ahead of me.

    hell if what im doing is completely wrong, i can change it and boost my dps even more.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychowolf View Post
    In my opinion, Rupture is always highest priority if it's not up, especially if you don't have the Hemo SV glyph. An average Rupture will almost always outdamage a crit Evis even when Find Weakness is up.
    Well, you should have that SV glyph.

    But note that it isn't really the question. If you could cast as many ruptures on a target as you had combo points, it would be.


    Again, pretend this is your scenario:

    You have one global left of find weakness. Rupture just fell off. You have five combo points and, say, four anticipation charges.

    Do you:

    > Rupture, because you believe a rupture where none of the ticks crit will outdamage a non-crit eviscerate. (you can add crit to this, but it changes not the result). Then, after the rupture, you press eviscerate without find weakness.
    > Eviscerate inside of find weakness, forgoing a rupture tick for the fight, then rupturing outside of FW.


    Pretty sure that second case is more damage, right?

  17. #17

    Sub Opener?

    I'm one of those who are trying sub for the first time after years of combat and mut. I do have a couple questions about the opener, since it seems much more involved than the other two specs.

    1) So, I open with Garrote to get the Sanguinary vein and icy-veins tells me I don't need to apply Rupture during the 18 seconds Garrote debuff is on target. I'm wondering wouldn't Rupture's own damage outdo Garrote, so wouldn't it be worth it to apply?

    2) I open with Garrote, then do you just keep hitting Ambush until you're out of Stealth? When do you use Hemorrhage? Do you apply Slice and Dice with 5 points or ASAP? When does Premeditation get into all this?

    3)Also, what do you guys use to track the duration of the Find Weakness debuff? Rogue power bars don't have it for some reason.

    Lots of questions, but it's exciting to play something new. Thanks for your help.
    Last edited by Koca; 2013-10-06 at 04:19 PM.

  18. #18
    what i thought of, and this might be horribly wrong is:

    premed, slice and dice, *pull*, hemo, ambush, rupture, ambush (if optimal)

  19. #19
    High Overlord Groukh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    103
    There's actually a lot of talking about using rupture when FW is up, and it seems that, if you have ur hemo glyphed, you can delay ur rupture. Eviscerate on FW does more damage than rupture, but when FW is down, rupture does overall more damage than eviscerate. I still don't know if using shadowblade with shadow dance.

    Some ppl are saying that you could also open with garrote, but I prefer getting SV with Hemo, and rupture out of FW.

  20. #20
    Yeah, been thinking about that too. I might try that out, but a good snappedshot rupture deals a shitton of dmg, because most trinkets proc at the beginning of the fight, so thats something to think about too.
    I would use Shadowblades ASAP (so with openers, because of the 10% dmg buff when stealthed, which you don't gain during shadowdance (or i've been looking wrong) and active trinkets)
    Ofc i use glyphed hemo.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •