Thread: Subtlety pve?

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  1. #1

    Subtlety pve?

    On Method's heroic Garrosh kill 3 out of 4 rogues (hurray for rogue representation!) were sub for the kill. A lot of talk has been done about combat vs. assassination and the general feeling that you needed to get a 4 pc. + AoC for combat to be on par with assassination although with the recent nerfs even with out that combat is up there now. But, what about subs damage in a raid? Are they more useful because of the short CD burst that they can do rather than over all dps? Is there some sort of item/s that you need that make sub turn awesome? It seems nice that both sub and combat have similar stat weights so you can swap between those pretty easily.

    Anyone done much play with sub since the assassin nerf/sub buff?

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire intrinsc's Avatar
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    AoC makes sub awesome.

  3. #3
    sadly the only use of sub in this instance i found was for iron juggernaut, the rest of the bosses just dont meet the positional requirements and your rotation gets fucked (malkorok 2nd phase, norushen stacking and turning around from the beam, sha target switching). It could work for thok and garrosh if you dont need more aoe then you have so you can just single target the boss, but for thok you get more damage from the deadly poison ticking on him while hes in the second phase, rupture too. And for garrosh you have that execute for last phase. It could just be my lack of experience playing that spec, but as i see it its just a dps loss after a dps loss if something out of ordinary happens. Im 10/14 hm for now if anyone is wondering.

  4. #4
    I've been running Subt this week. I like it a lot. I'm putting up better numbers as Subt than I was as Mut and it doesn't feel nearly as stale. It's not great on any fight with frequent target swaps or multidot opportunity, but I'm keeping Mut around for those fights or just playing Subt still because the fights are easy enough.

    I pulled almost 300k on normal Garrosh tonight without AoEing at the start, so I can see why it would be good. I haven't seen the heroic-only phase though.

  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire intrinsc's Avatar
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    I used Subtletly in every fight tonight from Heroic Malkorok all the way to clearing Normals except Spoils because of the many targets and cleave needed. Thok it was great. Malkorok just do Hemo when stacked in front. Siegecrafter I just yolo on the boss. Paragons you are behind them 99% of the time. Garrosh it's great single target except when the tanks get all erratic. Overall, I think it's a very fun and fast paced spec with AoC. I am still 550 ilevel, but I do good enough DPS to be in a 8/14 Heroic guild.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Anyone done much play with sub since the assassin nerf/sub buff?
    I don't have a great progress guild, but i'm playing assa for new bosses so i can focus more on fight mechanincs; i play sub for everything else, and i have a lot of fun. My gear lets me switch specs without reforging/regemming.

    Next reset i should start to log some WoL to share with you. Anyway my impressions: single target damage and burst are awesome, switching targets is not bad with Hemo glyph, cleaves are just superior in many enviroments. Backstab positional requirement is annoying as hell.

  7. #7
    Its definately ranking higher now, with the buff prob try it tonight

  8. #8
    Still waiting on a dagger.. I have two T16 sitting in my bags but because Combat plays better with 4T15 I haven't swapped over yet. (Along with one of my T16 being an essence that I'm holding off on converting until I know what I'll need for 4p).

    I'm excited to play Sub again, I went sub in Firelands (probably one of the first rogues who did), and played it all the way through DS until I quit. I have sub a shot in ToT and while I liked it, the fights were just too unfriendly for it. When I go sub I'm planning on going back to RoRo and seeing how it meshes, since that's what I did when I rolled with it in ToT and I enjoyed how it went (Mastery proc).

  9. #9
    I've been playing with sub and its on par with my combat dmg (549 combat mainhand and normal siege dagger for sub). But what I've done is change all my gemming to all agi/haste so i can play combat if need be. i haven't noticed a huge change in my combat dmg gemming like this and it allows me to play sub. the single target is pretty damn nice as sub.

  10. #10
    Only problem I've had with sub is short aoe phases such as the self reflection adds on Sha of Pride. Instead of trying to use sub's weak AOE on the fight, I just counted on the steady influx of HaT procs to burst the boss. My group's composition allows for this though. Seems like a good portion of sub's damage comes from aligning yourself in the correct party to maximize HaT procs. With that being said, Sub is going to scale better than the other two specs since your damage will increase not only with your increased item levels, but also with your team's increased item levels.

  11. #11
    I played sub this week and tbh I LOVE IT.. Awesome single target dps - and the rotation is way much challenging than the braindead assassination.. At some fights ye its lack behind but still u can compete if u potition yourself correctly and play good..

  12. #12
    theres nothing hard about sub rotation really, my real question is what the fudge is with shadowcraft telling me slow weapons......

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    Only problem I've had with sub is short aoe phases such as the self reflection adds on Sha of Pride. Instead of trying to use sub's weak AOE on the fight, I just counted on the steady influx of HaT procs to burst the boss. My group's composition allows for this though. Seems like a good portion of sub's damage comes from aligning yourself in the correct party to maximize HaT procs. With that being said, Sub is going to scale better than the other two specs since your damage will increase not only with your increased item levels, but also with your team's increased item levels.
    Hat has been proccing from the whole raid for quite some time now, and aoeing doesn't really give any increase in proc chance given that in normal situations it's proccing basically as soon as it's off icd.
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  14. #14
    Sub is fine for good single target, but annoying to use. Outdated positional requirements ftl.

  15. #15
    why is shadowcraft telling me slow weps for sub

  16. #16
    Sub can technically use slow weapons with a hemo build.

  17. #17
    To be honest the positional requirements of sub aren't to much of a hassle in SoO as they perhaps were in ToT, as long as your tanks are aware that you NEED to be behind the boss to make the spec work.
    I recently dropped my assassination spec in favour of sub, as i was simming a lot higher with my current gear (eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/twisting-nether/Spex/advanced) I have ranked on every fight in SoO in a number of different specs and if im honest I have actually produced better dps logs as sub that i did with assassination....
    The bosses ive found don't really work well for sub are immerseus heroic, protectors heroic, galakras heroic, shamans normal and heroic, spoils normal and heroic, and perhaps klaxxi's...but even there cleave is pretty useless, and higher burst is very handy for priority targets such as prime's amber.
    Sub really is a viable spec atm, and with the assassination nerf you will probably be seeing more players switch to sub for single target fights. I suppose it's really down to choice, but I do think it is nice that blizzard have finally allowed sub to be competitive again.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Hat has been proccing from the whole raid for quite some time now, and aoeing doesn't really give any increase in proc chance given that in normal situations it's proccing basically as soon as it's off icd.
    I wasn't aware that the entire raid group could proc HaT, that's very nice to know. HaT isn't proccing for me as soon as it's off CD in normal situations though. I definitely notice a tremendous increase in HaT procs during AOE phases of any encounter. It could be that lower gear levels among my raid team (and myself) are preventing me from getting as many HaT procs as others.

    Edit - Also, I raid 10 man, I can imagine HaT woud proc far more often for a 25 man sub rogue.
    Last edited by mongoose6; 2013-10-02 at 04:45 PM.

  19. #19
    I did notice a lot more hat procs in 25 man last night

  20. #20
    HaT has a 2s ICD. I can't imagine it not proccing basically on ICD for any 10m considering it procs from everything: ability crits, auto attack crits, heal crits, dot crits, hot crits, pet crits... all the crits. I was getting them consistently even during D stance on Nazgrim when only tanks, lock dots, pets, and heals are going off.

    On the main topic: I picked up both H AoC and H multistrike last night. This did ludicrous things to my DPS. I burst for 1m+ DPS on the pull now (with hero) and maintain ~350k in a single target situation while I'm still barely breaking 300k sustained with Mut. I don't even have my 4pc yet and subt is miles ahead of Mut now while they were basically even for me before those trinkets. Target swaps and brief periods of hemo spam from the front or complete downtime are not nearly as big a deal as some have been making them out to be. I'm pumping out better numbers as Subt in situations you might think would favor Mut (Galakras, Nazgrim, Spoils).

    I'm really starting to question the mut nerf and subt buff; however, it did get me to try subt and I'm having way more fun and putting up better numbers now. I guess it's good in that sense.

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