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  1. #201
    The inability to improve when faced with a challenge coupled with refusing to improve when told how only means one thing: The content hasn't failed, YOU have failed at learning.

  2. #202
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slatch View Post
    The inability to improve when faced with a challenge coupled with refusing to improve when told how only means one thing: The content hasn't failed, YOU have failed at learning.
    If people aren't interesting in learning and improving (not saying this is true, just following the train of thought), then the content has failed. This is a game. The game has to make us WANT to beat it's challenges.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    If people aren't interesting in learning and improving (not saying this is true, just following the train of thought), then the content has failed. This is a game. The game has to make us WANT to beat it's challenges.
    I don't really see your point. But the people who don't want to figure out how to get gold on Proving Grounds are exactly the type of people you don't want in a decent raiding guild.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    If people aren't interesting in learning and improving (not saying this is true, just following the train of thought), then the content has failed. This is a game. The game has to make us WANT to beat it's challenges.
    BS. It's the same game. Just because you cant do it/dont feel motivated to do it doesn't mean the game has failed. PvE is all about learning then doing, proving grounds provides a decent platform to show that you can do this. Some people enjoy the challenge. And people who thrive on challenge and improvement is someone who you want in your raids.

  5. #205
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ylera View Post
    BS. It's the same game. Just because you cant do it/dont feel motivated to do it doesn't mean the game has failed. PvE is all about learning then doing, proving grounds provides a decent platform to show that you can do this. Some people enjoy the challenge. And people who thrive on challenge and improvement is someone who you want in your raids.
    It isn't BS. If a system is left unused because players don't want to do it, then it has failed. If you as a game designer turn around and say "well the players just fail to understand what is good about it, it's their fault.", you would get sacked from a team like blizzard, although possibly hired to work on trashed out failing competitors like Rift (I hear one of their devs holds this opinion).

    As I said, I was merely countering the argument, not saying it applied entirely to proving grounds. It'd be nice if people on this forums could read but I guess I was in too good a mood to go onto mmo tonight =/
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  6. #206
    For challenge, it has no use, however, for training its what we have needed for long as now those of us who want to learn different specs don't need to punish unsuspecting PUGs in Dungeons/LFR/BGs.

    If you want challenge the rest of the game provides it well so for those seeking it should not try to get it from PG.

    For learning purposes, it is a success.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by honj90 View Post
    I brought my alt disc priest in PG. I didn't change anything, except maybe reforging for some more spirit (not sure about that, it's about 150g anyway) and I one-shot gold while barely paying attention to the mechanics (first time healing PG). So no, you can certainly do it as long as you pay some attention

    - - - Updated - - -



    You're just making excuses. Proving grounds is supposed to challenge you. Or do you think in raids you could just stand in one place and perform your rotation without interruptions (hint: except in LFR you can't)
    I don't think PG is targeted at those that are getting ready for anything above LFR or perhaps Flex to some degree.

  7. #207
    In the extreme I'd have to agree with Raiju. If no one used it all at it wouldn't matter how well it was designed. However as evidenced by this post there are a lot of people who have tried it, then we know that isn't the case. I also think that it is highly successful, as people have openly admitted that the challenge was too tough for them and stopped doing it. Which part they find challenging is irrelevant, they found at least one part challenging, hit their wall, and stopped. PG seems to be a great way to show how far one is willing to go to beat a challenge.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    It isn't BS. If a system is left unused because players don't want to do it, then it has failed. If you as a game designer turn around and say "well the players just fail to understand what is good about it, it's their fault.", you would get sacked from a team like blizzard, although possibly hired to work on trashed out failing competitors like Rift (I hear one of their devs holds this opinion).
    No, it just means you hold onto your ideas and are happy with quality over quantity. The same concept applies to music really, you can easily make more polished and more acceptable music that will sell a lot more, at the price of your integrity. A lot of artists prefer doing the art the way they envision it, and that's the best quality you can ever get. Whether it's a success or a failure is not decided by its reception by the public, it's decided by whether it accomplished its goal or not.

    Rift, by the way, is an awesome game. If you want to talk about failures, please mention AoC or others, but not Rift.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    It isn't BS. If a system is left unused because players don't want to do it, then it has failed. If you as a game designer turn around and say "well the players just fail to understand what is good about it, it's their fault.", you would get sacked from a team like blizzard, although possibly hired to work on trashed out failing competitors like Rift (I hear one of their devs holds this opinion).

    As I said, I was merely countering the argument, not saying it applied entirely to proving grounds. It'd be nice if people on this forums could read but I guess I was in too good a mood to go onto mmo tonight =/
    By this logic all aspects of the game should be appealing to all players. I'm saying that proving grounds has been sucessfully appealing to the type of player it caters to: people who wanted an extra challenge outside of raids. It wasnt a major feature to the game. But did it provide people an avenue for challenge and thus enjoyment? Absoutely. Just because you personally didn't like it, doesnt mean it was a bad addition.

    I personally haven't done it since i got the endless 30 achievement, but i still had a blast doing it.

  10. #210
    I do believe that there will be genuinely bad players who cannot achieve gold for any of the roles

    It does display some measure of skill, particularly without the opportunity to just over gear the waves

    And it's nice that there's a tool that reinforces a personal level of having to follow kill orders and interrupts rather than thinking "my raid will do it for me"
    (although that's an easy way to end up in the black books in my raids *glares angrily*)
    "Too late, and to their sorrow, do those who misplace their trust in gods learn their fate" - Judge Bergan

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  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    I'm suggesting that all Mage specs have their own spec-tuned PG and it should be balanced with Retribution Paladins, along with all the other DPS classes.

    It's not impossible, it just takes time Blizzard seem unwilling to put into it.
    The time, effort and ultimately money spent on creating a separate PG for each class and spec is clearly not worth it to Blizzard. Just like it wasn't worth it for ANY other content created in the World of Warcraft so far. Only an insane person would expect it done.

    Since Blizzard didn't bother to fix the jumping bug on Madness of Deathwing, I wouldn't hold my breath for a spec specific proving ground.
    Last edited by andreas1999; 2013-10-09 at 08:03 AM.

  12. #212
    It can be successfull with improvements. It's a good start...

  13. #213
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    No, it just means you hold onto your ideas and are happy with quality over quantity. The same concept applies to music really, you can easily make more polished and more acceptable music that will sell a lot more, at the price of your integrity. A lot of artists prefer doing the art the way they envision it, and that's the best quality you can ever get. Whether it's a success or a failure is not decided by its reception by the public, it's decided by whether it accomplished its goal or not.

    Rift, by the way, is an awesome game. If you want to talk about failures, please mention AoC or others, but not Rift.
    Rift was a failure, it is the only attempted wow-killer that deserves their title due to their marketing, and they failed miserably. Also, when you're a small artist/publisher and when you're part of a huge company your goals shift.

    I also love the strawmanning, I never threw my opinion into this discussion Ylera so if you could stick to actual discussiona and keep it out? If you're that interested I don't believe PG's are a failure, just have a lot of flaws. I believe they have been successful (especially considering how little dev time likely went into them)
    Last edited by Raiju; 2013-10-09 at 08:11 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    If people aren't interesting in learning and improving (not saying this is true, just following the train of thought), then the content has failed. This is a game. The game has to make us WANT to beat it's challenges.
    So heroic raiding also failed? And Brawler's Guild? CM's?

    They did make you WANT to beat it's challenges but apparently that was bad design so now you get reused content, achievements and cosmetic items for being good at the game/beating the challenges...

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    I don't enjoy the idea of Blizzard forcing movement out of a turret spec. But you're right, it's not that big a deal.
    You're going to be very annoyed if / when you ever pursue the legendary cloak.
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  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    So heroic raiding also failed? And Brawler's Guild? CM's?

    They did make you WANT to beat it's challenges but apparently that was bad design so now you get reused content, achievements and cosmetic items for being good at the game/beating the challenges...
    Read the argument. Do people do Heroic raiding? Yes. Do people do Brawlers guild? Well when content gets added yeah, gets pretty quiet in patches after. CM's? Yeah there's still a handful of people doing it now which is good longevity for a bit harder mobs, a timer, and fixed gear ilvl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    I'm seeing a lot of people complaining about the scaling down of gear and I can kind of understand why, but I actually quite like it. It levels the playing field. I like to know that, if my score is higher than someone elses, it's because of my ability and not because of my gear.

    It's the same with challenge modes, after all. Everyone is capped at 463. Some people can't manage gold clears because they're simply not good enough (or practiced enough). All it takes is more work!
    I like the idea behind it, if they'd balance classes better. I can, without any skill just win at DPS proving grounds on my monk because of 1 ability: Storm, Earth, and Fire. I'm not kidding, I had 10+ sec left every round in GOLD.

    In healing proving grounds however, I can't do shit. I'm a better at healing than DPSing (it's my main spec), but because monks can't spam their fast heal for mana reasons, don't have a slow big heal and their mastery (Gift of the Serpent) doesn't do shit because the NPC's don't move around, it's really hard for me to do it. I can imagine a paladin/shaman/priest facerolling through it though.

    The score isn't only skill, it's also what class/spec you play. I'd even go as far and say it's mostly class/spec.
    CPU: I7 2600k @ 3.5GHz - GPU:ASUS DCUIIO GTX680 MOBO: MSI Z68-GD65 G3 - RAM: Kingston 8GB DDR3 - SSD: MX100 512GB - HDD: WD Blue 1TB/WD Green 2TB - CASE: Aerocool Xwarrior - Monitor: Samsung SA300 23" + Medion 23" (2x 1080p) - PSU: Corsair TX 850 - OS: Win7 Ultimate 64

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    And 97% of the Internet knows that 99% of statistics are made up on the spot!

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenX View Post
    For challenge, it has no use, however, for training its what we have needed for long as now those of us who want to learn different specs don't need to punish unsuspecting PUGs in Dungeons/LFR/BGs.

    If you want challenge the rest of the game provides it well so for those seeking it should not try to get it from PG.

    For learning purposes, it is a success.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't think PG is targeted at those that are getting ready for anything above LFR or perhaps Flex to some degree.
    Waves 30+ are pretty tough though (although also boring because you need to re-do 1-30 every time)

  19. #219
    I got to wave 28 on endless and messed up
    CPU: i5 2500K w/ Noctua NH-U12P SE2
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    SSD: Intel 520 180GB

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    It's not something that u will be doing as much as brawlers or something if we talk about the recent new features, but they aren't a fail either.
    It's a feature u will maybe visit few times in your life, get what you wanted and move on ;p
    one does not simply call brawlers guild "a few times visit" !!!

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