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  1. #341
    Oh ya that thing was added..

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    You shouldn't have to "figure out" how to play the god damned game on your own. Games don't do this anymore. Games haven't done this really at all anymore since the 90's :x

    It'd be one thing if WoW was inherently intuitive and you learned as you do, but it's not. You have to go to outside sources for this sort of stuff, or just be very, very, very, very game adept, which is, frankly, not what an MMO audience usually is. Be a little realistic here, and try and not be insulting about it. It's not about "having your hand held" or whatever petty insult you want to throw at certain people. The game just doesn't tend to teach people how to play :x You have to want to learn to play right, and then search out how to do that, because if you don't, unless you're very game adept, you're almost always going to be playing WoW wrong, and there's some inherent flaws in that design, and it's not just laziness and what have you.

    (I'm not talking about Proving Grounds, so much as WoW not teaching people jack squat of how to play it.)
    But you do not have to figure out how to play the game on your own. The World of Warcraft official getting started guide helps you out with the basic stuff, controls etc. It teaches you everything you need to know to be able to play the game. The in-game tooltips on spells and other stuff helps you figure out most of the stuff revolving around your class. With a bit of common sense you can often figure out your optimal dps rotation without even using any exteral source. Of course this is easier on some specs than others.

    The only thing you actually have to go to outside sources to figure out is the really really optimal min-maxing and cutting edge stuff. Of course you can also find this out by yourself, but that requires a lot of figuring out. This step is however completely unnecessary unless you play at the cutting edge of content.

    The only thing that you actually have to figure out is how to use your toolkit to beat the challenge infront of you. This is something that exists in every single game in this world, including angry birds. No game that I am aware of comes with a build in walkthrough complete for the entire game, telling you exactly what to do. To go back to the angry birds example, even such a simple game has the same model as WoW. During the game, the game tells you, hey these birds are your ammonition, they have different characteristics. These are your enemies, use the ammo wisely to beat the level. In the exact same way, leveling up the tooltips tells you exactly what every spell does. When you enter the proving ground it tells you exactly what each enemy do. I do not understand how you think that no other game requires you to figure stuff out. I would honestly like an example of any game (preferably a bit mainstream game) that does not require a bit of figuring out at all.

    Even so, we get a conflict of interest. We have people complaining widespread that raiding is too hard. People simply do not possess the capabilities to perform their roles to the needed limit and figure out how to overcome the challenges that raiding provides. Blizzard then introduces Proving Grounds that teaches players the basics of having to figure out how to beat and encounter and how to utilize your class for niche scenarios. It then gets complaints because it needs to be "figured out" how to beat. Fairly obvious blizzard are trying to help people into raiding by teaching people the raiding mindset. "This is my class, this is the encounter I am up against. How do I beat this encounter?"

    I still cant comprehend how you can considerig figuring out for yourself how to overcome a specific challenge/boss/map/level to not be a part of a game.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    You shouldn't have to "figure out" how to play the god damned game on your own. Games don't do this anymore. Games haven't done this really at all anymore since the 90's :x
    "Figuring stuff out" is a life skill that you should try to apply from anything from a game to a maths problem to dealing with people. It's one of the most valuable skills you can learn. If you just want stuff spoonfed to you then welcome to mediocrity.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    But you do not have to figure out how to play the game on your own. The World of Warcraft official getting started guide helps you out with the basic stuff, controls etc. It teaches you everything you need to know to be able to play the game. The in-game tooltips on spells and other stuff helps you figure out most of the stuff revolving around your class. With a bit of common sense you can often figure out your optimal dps rotation without even using any exteral source. Of course this is easier on some specs than others.

    The only thing you actually have to go to outside sources to figure out is the really really optimal min-maxing and cutting edge stuff. Of course you can also find this out by yourself, but that requires a lot of figuring out. This step is however completely unnecessary unless you play at the cutting edge of content.

    The only thing that you actually have to figure out is how to use your toolkit to beat the challenge infront of you. This is something that exists in every single game in this world, including angry birds. No game that I am aware of comes with a build in walkthrough complete for the entire game, telling you exactly what to do. To go back to the angry birds example, even such a simple game has the same model as WoW. During the game, the game tells you, hey these birds are your ammonition, they have different characteristics. These are your enemies, use the ammo wisely to beat the level. In the exact same way, leveling up the tooltips tells you exactly what every spell does. When you enter the proving ground it tells you exactly what each enemy do. I do not understand how you think that no other game requires you to figure stuff out. I would honestly like an example of any game (preferably a bit mainstream game) that does not require a bit of figuring out at all.

    Even so, we get a conflict of interest. We have people complaining widespread that raiding is too hard. People simply do not possess the capabilities to perform their roles to the needed limit and figure out how to overcome the challenges that raiding provides. Blizzard then introduces Proving Grounds that teaches players the basics of having to figure out how to beat and encounter and how to utilize your class for niche scenarios. It then gets complaints because it needs to be "figured out" how to beat. Fairly obvious blizzard are trying to help people into raiding by teaching people the raiding mindset. "This is my class, this is the encounter I am up against. How do I beat this encounter?"

    I still cant comprehend how you can considerig figuring out for yourself how to overcome a specific challenge/boss/map/level to not be a part of a game.
    I think the dissonance here is that you think WoW's gameplay is a lot more intuitive than I seem to.

    In something like, say... Assassin's Creed, for example, you're plainly told what everything does, as you're able to do it, and given, immediately after learning what to do, something you have to do with it. WoW doesn't do that. You have to want to know what to do. Unoptimal/improper play is rewarded and acceptable until the endgame, where it isn't. Almost everything in your toolset is unimportant and unprovoked until then. There's a big gap there, where the game doesn't actively teach you how to play it. It just says "Stuff is here, it does some stuff probably. Figure it out."

    In that Angry Birds example, it's pretty plainly clear. Pull band, hit pigs, break things. When you get a new bird type, it immediately shows you a visual example of what that thing does, and how to use it, and how it applies to the game. Again, WoW doesn't do anything of the sort.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    "Figuring stuff out" is a life skill that you should try to apply from anything from a game to a maths problem to dealing with people. It's one of the most valuable skills you can learn. If you just want stuff spoonfed to you then welcome to mediocrity.
    It's not about wanting stuff "spoonfed" to you. Way to jump to one extreme to another :x Did you just cherry pick one line out of what I said, and ignore the rest so you could make a quick insulting blurb?

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    "Figuring stuff out" is a life skill that you should try to apply from anything from a game to a maths problem to dealing with people. It's one of the most valuable skills you can learn. If you just want stuff spoonfed to you then welcome to mediocrity.
    I am going to have to second this. Problem solving (a.k.a. figuring stuff out), is one of the, if not the most important skill you can have in life. Applying it in video games is great. Especially considerig how many kids play them as it teaches them a valuable life skill and mentality. People giving up as soon as things get challenging will never get far in life.
    Though that makes it sound like problem solving is something new to game. The fact is that problem solving exists in every single (serious) game ever createt do different extents and degrees.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    I think the dissonance here is that you think WoW's gameplay is a lot more intuitive than I seem to.

    In something like, say... Assassin's Creed, for example, you're plainly told what everything does, as you're able to do it, and given, immediately after learning what to do, something you have to do with it. WoW doesn't do that. You have to want to know what to do. Unoptimal/improper play is rewarded and acceptable until the endgame, where it isn't. Almost everything in your toolset is unimportant and unprovoked until then. There's a big gap there, where the game doesn't actively teach you how to play it. It just says "Stuff is here, it does some stuff probably. Figure it out."

    In that Angry Birds example, it's pretty plainly clear. Pull band, hit pigs, break things. When you get a new bird type, it immediately shows you a visual example of what that thing does, and how to use it, and how it applies to the game. Again, WoW doesn't do anything of the sort.

    I do agree that WoW is not that great at teaching people the core of their game. Actually, scratch that, WoW is great at learning players the mechanics, but players still do not learn them since they have no incentive to learn.
    This is for two simple reasons, leveling is too fast and too easy. You level up so fast that new players dont have time to let the new abilities sink in, and leveling up is so easy that you do not actually have to learn what your abilities do and what are the most effective. Which means you can spend the entire leveling process completely mindless and doing some totally wrong, and never even notice it. The core is there, when you level up it pops up "You have learned a new spell!", it comes out on your action bar automatically and the tooltip says exactly what it does. The problem is that the player has no need to actually learn what the spell does or use it, as whatever he does he will still level up properly.

    The entire leveling process now is just meaningless. Just a pointless grind.

    I see proving grounds as a step in a direction away from that, trying to provide challenging content. If the content does not challenge you, you do not learn anything.

    And yeah, of course a game like Angry Birds is more plain and linear, as it in itself is simply a platform game. It is not a large complex gameworld with different types of classes, mechanics and challenges. It is a simple game with short levels to complete. Still, the basics is the same as WoW. You get told about your toolkit and about the challenges you face. The difference is that both the toolkit and challenges for example are more challenging in WoW than angry birds (duh) as one is designed for a gaming platform and the other for cellphones. That for sure does not mean that WoW is more challenging than other PC games. Dont get me wrong at that.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-10-12 at 05:43 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I am going to have to second this. Problem solving (a.k.a. figuring stuff out), is one of the, if not the most important skill you can have in life. Applying it in video games is great. Especially considerig how many kids play them as it teaches them a valuable life skill and mentality. People giving up as soon as things get challenging will never get far in life.
    Though that makes it sound like problem solving is something new to game. The fact is that problem solving exists in every single (serious) game ever createt do different extents and degrees.
    Problem solving is fine. I like problem solving a lot! Figuring out how to play a game right should not be problem solving :x The game should teach players as they play better. I don't understand why there's this gap in understanding here.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Problem solving is fine. I like problem solving a lot! Figuring out how to play a game right should not be problem solving :x The game should teach players as they play better. I don't understand why there's this gap in understanding here.
    I do not really understand, what is it that the game does not teach you? It is not like you have spells what a tooltip that says "*secret tooltip* efffects of this spell is unknown". The only reason that the game can sometimes be bad at teaching is simply because especially the leveling process is so easy that there is no incentive to learn the proper way of doing stuff. A fire mage can spam frostbolt from 1-90 and still be fine leveling.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  8. #348
    I can't speak for all classes, but I am a monk. And while I was already very good at playing my monk long before proving grounds existed, I have other monks coming to me all the time wanting advice and tips and all that sort of thing. One of the things I tell them a lot is to go into the proving grounds. This is especially true of DPS monks. Some of them don't even know how to properly utilize SEF and don't use it at all, it's shocking really, but dps proving ground is a good way to teach you how to use your SEF effectively and see the tangible benefits of mastering it. This is especially true of wave 3 on endless because the adds in the middle of wave 3 are too spread out to be aoe'd in one place, so you have to use clever use of SEF to aoe them down better than you could ever hope to without SEF as a monk. Also as DPS it teaches you about cooldown managment, do you want to use that TEB right now, or save it until later?

    The same is true for tanking. To get further along in the proving ground endless mode for tanking, it basically forces you to do things that a common player is not going to do. You have to know when to use your stuns and cooldowns to survive, but you also need to know when and who to disarm and get in the habit of disarming your enemies (most monks don't do this, even tanks), you have to get in the habit of throwing out CC with paralysis on priority targets that you don't want to deal with yet, you have to kite them around a little by rolling away until you get healed up.

    Proving grounds doesn't explicitly tell you what to do to get better (maybe it should?), but it presents you with problems and you have to figure out which tools to use to overcome them. It's great for training tanks how to utilize all of their abilities instead of only their man damage/defense cooldowns and also good at learning the quirks and how to properly use things like SEF.

    I like it. I got all 3 role-specific titles in rapid succession on my monk as it isn't difficult if you know how to play, but it's a good tool for people who aren't as good to get better.

    I liked the Monk class daily quest for the same reason. It taught players that were leveling up a variety of ways their abilities could be used in by defeating the various monk trainers.

    In an ideal world, proving grounds would be tailored to each class and teach you how to use the tools available to your specific class to overcome the obstacles. Realistically though, that will never happen, because blizzard is always nerfing shit, removing shit, and adding new shit, so they'd have to constantly update PG with every patch and they simply would never do it. The incarnation we do get is fine though, you just have to accept it for what it is and not try to make it something that it is not.
    Last edited by Dasani; 2013-10-12 at 05:57 AM.
    I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I do not really understand, what is it that the game does not teach you? It is not like you have spells what a tooltip that says "*secret tooltip* efffects of this spell is unknown". The only reason that the game can sometimes be bad at teaching is simply because especially the leveling process is so easy that there is no incentive to learn the proper way of doing stuff. A fire mage can spam frostbolt from 1-90 and still be fine leveling.
    I was thinking more along the lines of what I pointed out in the AC example and what I pointed out in the Angry Birds example. You're directly challenged in those games with the ability you just learned, when you learn them, and are told through the gameplay how to use them. WoW has never really ever done that, and most modern games do now a days.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    This week, my co-tank died on immerseus heroic with us having no CR left. I adapted to his mistake and solo tanked the rest of the boss (he died on the pull so basically solo tanked the entire fight). We actually had 5 people alive for the last 3 splits, because people failed like shit.
    On Protectors Heroic, my co-tank once again died on the first He transition. I once again adapted to this and solo tanked the rest of the fight.
    For a fight like Iron Jugg heroic, maybe someone placed a mine completely retarded and nobody can reach it. Either dealing with healing up the mine explosion or someone that is not supposed to soak figuring out a way to quickly soak it is extremely possible. Once again, dealing with mistakes.
    I call bullshit on this. These antics are certainly conceivable, but only once you've attained a certain level of gear. You can't tell me you've been successfully raiding heroics for all month with screwups like these. Sure, once you've gotten a few weeks of heroic gear under your belt you can power through screw-ups like that, but most guilds don't tolerate them, especially not on progression fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Dark Shams there are just a million mistakes people can do. Dealing with those mistakes are almost always possible.
    But more often than not it's quicker to "clean it up" and start over ASAP instead of spending 10 minutes trying to compensate for your screw-up 30 seconds in only to watch the boss(es) enrage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    For thok, whoever is kiting does not sufficient speed boost when Thok is faster than Usain Bolt. We have several times saved lifes by our feral druid displacer beasting in the whoever is kiting popping stampeding roar while our priest runs ahead and life grips, realising that the kiter failed in having sufficient distance and speed boots to deal with kiting, thus dealing with something that would have lead to a death.
    That's pretty cool, but it has nothing to do with proving grounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Etc etc. The list goes on and on. Mistakes are extremely punishing in heroic content, but they do happen. Mistakes always happen, how you deal with those mistakes defines your guild.
    You're talking about adapting to random mistakes, and PG doesn't teach that at all. It's a consistent barrage of screw-ups that you deal with wave after wave until you finally OOM and/or an NPC has the misfortune to get one-shotted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    It took me more pulls than I would like to admit to get the healing endless, but that was due to doing it with a healer in full pvp gear and shitty enchants gems, reforges etc. I decided to wait out the week, got atleast half PvE gear from running flex and LFR etc, gemmed it for spirit and went back in and one shotted it once my gear was not 100% terrible.
    And then on the patch where they nerfed AoE the NPCs lost their ability to kill the waves in full and the healer PG got much harder. They even hotfixed it to where they were better for a while, but the hot fix seems to have regressed since. You should give it a try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Mana management issues for sure exist for my healer alts, granted my healing alts do not have the legendaries yet or BiS gear. PGs in the current state are not directed to people in full raid gear. So I think that mana is an issue is a good thing. Still, I agree that the design of the healing proving ground needs the biggest improvements.
    I don't have legendaries or BiS gear either but I never OOM because I'm consistently pop my mana tide as soon as it's efficient. Unfortunately I can't even do that easily in PG because I tend to fall behind on the constant barrage of damage that the NPCs take if I let mana tide go its full length. That's another problem you seldom have in raid. Unless something goes terribly wrong or you're trying a special tactic for a fight there is always a back-up healer to pick up the slack while you use your focus potion or your mana regen skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    It being nothing to avoid on the ground and stack/spread phases is to me irrelevant. That is stuff a monkey can do
    Yet that is the biggest source of failure in most raids. Usually there are only one or two skills to interrupt and you have 5-18 DPSers who generally focus on them, so it's pretty seldom that a healer would even have to contend with stuns or interrupts. I take it upon myself to do so, but generally it's not expected. That seems to be PG's focus, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The player that realises "I just took a stacking DoT that I should not take, I better pop barkskin and a healthstone" is far more useful than the raider that dies from it. The player that notices "The tank always dies when the boss casts this spell, maybe I should pop my hand of sacrifice on the tank" is far more valuable than the player that needs to be told to do so.
    I agree with you, but again, PG doesn't teach that. At some point someone who is really good at PG is going to write a guide that details everything you're going to encounter and outlines how to deal with it (kind of like you did), and at that point strategizing will become unnecessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    As far as recruiting to a heroic raiding guild, a player that said he soloed some hard boss or have gotten to endless 60+ in proving grounds yet lacks raiding experience/gear is far more interesting to me than a player that got nothing but a little bit of raiding experience.
    At the start of the tier, probably. When you're a couple of months in then the player with actual experience on the fights is going to be better. Again, consider Paragon wiped 486+ times on Garrosh. Skill only takes you so far. Practice wins out over the long run because that's how Blizzard designs their raids. They want even the best players in the game to stick around for at least a few months, so they deliberately change things up to make skill as irrelevant as possible: mechanics constantly change from fight to fight and gear ultimately determines your damage output far more than your actual skill does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You just need to queue up to a LFR to notice this is false. The sad truth is that a majority of the population in WoW are on the level where they need to be handheld every stop on the way.
    That was a typo on my part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    If you only count raiders, not even a third of the raiders are at this level. If you then take it to the next level and count everyone in WoW, 99% is so far from the truth.
    I was only talking about normal mode and heroic raiders, yes. I don't know of any raiding guilds that don't require their members to read guides. That's why I think that 99% of the raiders in the game pretty much operate at the level you described.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Of course proving grounds teaches you muscle memory. How can you think it does not?
    I meant muscle memory for specific fights. Everyone knows how to stand in or out of fire, but predicting when the Imploding void zones are expected to appear on the Malkorok fight and determining whether you should soak it or defer to a fellow group member requires practice. That is far more crucial to success in raiding than anything PG teaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    In my guild people reforge and regem between pretty much every boss. I do however believe that the set bonuses and legendaries are disabled in proving grounds. Never tested it as I do not have set bonuses on any of my characters.
    I'm pretty sure they're not, but I could be wrong. Your guild is outside the norm. I've never seen any guild reforge between fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Dunno about you but I always had 100% mana after each round of waves as you are allowed to drink between wave x9 and x0
    Not anymore. They nerfed that. No hexes/polymorphs or pots allowed anymore either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I think this is hitting a soft spot for many people. Several people are hitting a brick wall in proving grounds. They then go on a rant on the forums "Proving gruond dont got anything to do with actual raiding bla bla bla" because they can not face the fact that maybe they are not so good at playing their class as they thought they were.
    I think you should step back into healer proving grounds again now that they've applied the nerfs to your NPC party and see how far you get under current conditions. Then you can judge whether or not these people are ranting. On this proving grounds topic, for instance, you see statements like this:
    Day one I was getting to wave 28-29. Now I am having a hard time even getting past the first 10 (though sometimes I get lucky).
    If they were so horrible how were they almost to 30 before and barely past 10 now? There was even a blue post about it:
    We've actually been making several adjustments to the AI of the NPC party members in the healing Proving Grounds via hotfix. I don't believe all of the changes have hit yet as I write this, but if all goes well, they should be applied within the next day or so. I'd recommend keeping an eye on the official hotfix blog for updates.
    So it's not all BS made up by raging players.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    I was thinking more along the lines of what I pointed out in the AC example and what I pointed out in the Angry Birds example. You're directly challenged in those games with the ability you just learned, when you learn them, and are told through the gameplay how to use them. WoW has never really ever done that, and most modern games do now a days.
    True. And its not really possible to do that with the non-linear nature of leveling in WoW. Would you like something like this?
    You hit level 30 as a warrior, you get a quest that unlocks Shield Wall. But first you have to fight a mob solo that has a oneshot ability that only shieldwall will save you from.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    The advice is terrible, and the strat for the monkey for Arcane is try to make him blow up before he moves out of the circle you need to stand in, and not get hit by Amber.
    The NPC tells you what the monkey does.

    Good players will figure out what abilities/talents/glyphs/movement pattern are idea to deal with the monkey and kill it.

    Average players will ask for advice and after a few tries get it down.

    Even though you got advice from multiple people instead of actually doing it in practice you keep complaining and asking for a utopia (all specs being equal). Some classes have a harder time than you in other waves, you have a hard time on this wave. And, unlike you, not everyone has the option to use their off-spec to make things easier. So please deal with it.

    PS. Blizzard was obviously lazy with the proving grounds. But one thing they did correctly was NOT making them a glorified target dummy so you could complete them in arcane without ever having to move.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    True. And its not really possible to do that with the non-linear nature of leveling in WoW. Would you like something like this?
    You hit level 30 as a warrior, you get a quest that unlocks Shield Wall. But first you have to fight a mob solo that has a oneshot ability that only shieldwall will save you from.
    That kind of quests actually existed in WoW pre-Cata rehash. Not for all classes, though.

  14. #354
    Enjoyed proving grounds. Only problem for me is that i know it takes so long, with me not being able to talk. Just the short time it took to get gold, i had 4 different people talking to me, with me having to reply.
    When i tried to go for endless tank i got even more talking and had to give up, when i kept dying to replying(i suck at ignoring people). Never got back to it, but it's rather high on the priority, since i love the title <the proven defender>

    Haven't tried dps, but will do that too, which i asume is easier for me, since i'm a better player on my feral than my paladin tank.
    Everyone has so much to say
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  15. #355
    Stood in the Fire Snorkles's Avatar
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    Part of this issue is that you blast through levels so fast and automatically get skills that a lot of things get overlooked. On my BrM monk (level 58) I didn't have spear hand strike, disable or any CC/Utility abilities to speak of on my toolbar, still don't probably - I know I will need them, eventually, but at low level up to even heroics it is just gogogo. There's never any real reason to use them. Imagine if I was a new player? I'd probably just think they're redundant.

    In a single player game that has some sort of skill system, you tend to be presented with a challenge which can be done by using your latest skill, or a combination. You can't progress until you've worked out how to use the skill correctly. As the game progressively gets harder you have to combine more and more skills. You learn through playing, the same can't be said for WoW.

    People probably do want to learn but, if you don't know you're doing it wrong and there's pretty much no punishment for doing so, why would think you needed to?

  16. #356
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Exaggeration and repetition removed from the post quoted below.
    Quote Originally Posted by honj90 View Post
    Blizzard was obviously lazy with the proving grounds.
    Which is why it needs further tuning.
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  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorkles View Post
    Part of this issue is that you blast through levels so fast and automatically get skills that a lot of things get overlooked. On my BrM monk (level 58) I didn't have spear hand strike, disable or any CC/Utility abilities to speak of on my toolbar, still don't probably - I know I will need them, eventually, but at low level up to even heroics it is just gogogo. There's never any real reason to use them. Imagine if I was a new player? I'd probably just think they're redundant.

    In a single player game that has some sort of skill system, you tend to be presented with a challenge which can be done by using your latest skill, or a combination. You can't progress until you've worked out how to use the skill correctly. As the game progressively gets harder you have to combine more and more skills. You learn through playing, the same can't be said for WoW.

    People probably do want to learn but, if you don't know you're doing it wrong and there's pretty much no punishment for doing so, why would think you needed to?
    Yeah, this is basically what I'm saying. They really, really, really need to rethink the auto getting skills. Buying them isn't the right option either. I like what the guy said earlier, a quest to unlock each skill as you get them. Even if it's just using it on a target dummy, at least it teaches you about the spell. And the spellbook would have to plainly say "TO UNLOCK THIS SKILL, VISIT YOUR TRAINER FOR YOUR TRAINING QUEST" or some such. Even better would be if your level was capped until you did these quests. (But only the first time, per class, per spec. Plenty of games do this. Lots of RPG's do variants of this.)

    I'm also none too fond of the fact that Enchanting, enhancing, gemming, and reforging are essentially mentioned nowhere in the game, save for vendors, and when you see sockets on gear. There's a huge layer of the game that's unwelcoming in that regard to the general consumer, that all could be teached to them through normal play. It doesn't even have to be challenging or anything, so long as they're made aware of their toolset without having to seek it out. i.e. Finding a random enchant on a mob that's of low power, that tasks you to bring it to the Etherals, whom explain all the various things they can do, in a flavorful lore way, and instruct you on the fact that you can buy certain things at the auction house and whatnot, too, to enhance your character. All sorts of things like that could be done. For that stuff, for mounts, for dungeons, for PVP, for everything, really. A lot of the game isn't spelled out in a logical way to new players. There's a severe lack of immersion, and everything just blows right by until you're at the endgame.

    I certainly don't think that's "hand holding". That's showcasing the game to new people without spelling everything out, and giving them the proper tools to learn new things. Most certainly, being forced to actually use most of your skills more than once to actually have to progress through the leveling process would breed a much better player.

    Proving Grounds is a step in the right direction, but it takes place too far into the playing process to be of much use to the people who really need these sort of things. As is, it seems like both a fun distraction, and a new way for pug leaders to discriminate. (I quit before 5.4, so I haven't done em! Just observing!)

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Exaggeration and repetition removed from the post quoted below.

    Which is why it needs further tuning.
    Taking a sentence out of context makes it completely irrelevant.

    Repeating: It needs better design, maybe to include more mechanics especially for the healer PG. What we don't need is 34 different spec specific PG. Doing the maximum possible DPS while moving is one of the challenges most often presented in raiding, if you can't do that you are not playing at your full potential. Not using your CC, not using the correct talents and spells is not playing your class at its fullest potential. Even refusing to change specs for specific niche fights is not playing at your fullest potential.

    Proving grounds is a challenge, challenge means you need to move out of your comfort zone.
    Last edited by honj90; 2013-10-12 at 12:13 PM.

  19. #359
    Pandaren Monk twistedsista's Avatar
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    disc priest, here.
    i got bronze one day...bored. 2nd day, silver...bored. 3rd day, 6th wave on gold...bored. the end.

  20. #360
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by honj90 View Post
    Taking a sentence out of context makes it completely irrelevant.

    Repeating: It needs better design, maybe to include more mechanics especially for the healer PG. What we don't need is 34 different spec specific PG. Doing the maximum possible DPS while moving is one of the challenges most often presented in raiding, if you can't do that you are not playing at your full potential. Not using your CC, not using the correct talents and spells is not playing your class at its fullest potential. Even refusing to change specs for specific niche fights is not playing at your fullest potential.
    You're right, every shaman should be resto because we perform absolute shit as both enha/ele at 463 ilvl.

    PG's biggest flaw (biggest because it will always be a problem no matter what else they change) is that it is not relevant to current item level, where the classes are attempted to be balanced. When specs like shaman ones are mid-table with good secondary stat scaling compared to a lot of specs, that makes them absolute trash when you knock off 100 ilvls. PG's should be balanced around a number relevant to the tier we're on, in other words. Say 550.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

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