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  1. #361
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by honj90 View Post
    Taking a sentence out of context makes it completely irrelevant.
    I should just block you because you don't seem to understand what I'm saying, and just repeat your mantra back to me that PG as Fire/Frost should be exactly the same as PG Arcane regardless of the toolkit each spec has.
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  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    You're right, every shaman should be resto because we perform absolute shit as both enha/ele at 463 ilvl.

    PG's biggest flaw (biggest because it will always be a problem no matter what else they change) is that it is not relevant to current item level, where the classes are attempted to be balanced. When specs like shaman ones are mid-table with good secondary stat scaling compared to a lot of specs, that makes them absolute trash when you knock off 100 ilvls. PG's should be balanced around a number relevant to the tier we're on, in other words. Say 550.
    I'm addressing specifically Firebert's concern, who is an arcane mage, refuses to change specs or use the correct talent/ability combinations to get past certain waves and complains that PG gold is too hard for him.

    The downscaling is a bit annoying, but it does force you to re-evaluate all your stats and priorities. Ideally I believe the gear, as long as it's above 463 should be scaled up to the current flex ilvl.

    And shamans were amazing for brawler's guild btw, can't always have it all.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    You shouldn't have to "figure out" how to play the god damned game on your own. Games don't do this anymore. Games haven't done this really at all anymore since the 90's :x

    It'd be one thing if WoW was inherently intuitive and you learned as you do, but it's not. You have to go to outside sources for this sort of stuff, or just be very, very, very, very game adept, which is, frankly, not what an MMO audience usually is. Be a little realistic here, and try and not be insulting about it. It's not about "having your hand held" or whatever petty insult you want to throw at certain people. The game just doesn't tend to teach people how to play :x You have to want to learn to play right, and then search out how to do that, because if you don't, unless you're very game adept, you're almost always going to be playing WoW wrong, and there's some inherent flaws in that design, and it's not just laziness and what have you.

    (I'm not talking about Proving Grounds, so much as WoW not teaching people jack squat of how to play it.)
    With this "plz carry me"-attitude no wonder there's so many bad players, Firefly has a great point but people are just too stubborn to accept it.

    And lol at that person adding people to his/her ignore-list after they've given solid advice for how to improve your game and overall proving grounds-experience.
    Last edited by Trollfaced; 2013-10-12 at 12:41 PM.

  4. #364
    Proving Grounds on DPS is kinda.. meh. But I really enjoyed Tank and Healer. Especially Tank is a real challenge and should be good to measure applicants.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    I should just block you because you don't seem to understand what I'm saying, and just repeat your mantra back to me that PG as Fire/Frost should be exactly the same as PG Arcane regardless of the toolkit each spec has.
    Are mobs or quests different depending on your spec? Are raids adapting to raid group composition? Do non-pet classes get an extra pet to solo Ordos elites? Do balance druids get the amount of CC you have in any spec to help them complete PG (or even leveling) easier? Can you do high ranks brawler's guild in a tank or healer spec?

    There is nothing in this game that changes depending on the class or spec you play. You are playing a pure dps class and want a spec specific PG. Hybrid classes often don't even have the option to use their off-spec to complete PG. Which means you basically would want a PG desinged for 34 different specs which is an enormous waste of resources

    You could make an argument for different melee and ranged DPS proving grounds but that's about it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    With this "plz carry me"-attitude no wonder there's so many bad players, Firefly has a great point but people are just too stubborn to accept it.
    I agree with Firefly's posts, but it's also true that WoW teaches you nothing about the game any more. Because everything in game besides the top end is so trivial (leveling, 5-mans, LFR) and there is absolutely no feedback on your performance (in the extremely rare case of dieing, having a 20sec corpse run is no real feedback) players play through the whole game with no idea what they're doing wrong. And when they come to the challenging parts (PG, raids etc.) for a lot of them it's really hard to adapt and realise that you need to do some research on your class and the encounter and think about what the optimal way to tackle a specific challenge is.

  6. #366
    I don't know why people are still responding to Firebert. He's just one of those guys who think they are better than they really are.
    He probably got that idea in late cataclysm or late wotlk with the 30% buff in the final tier raids.
    Now he is presented a challenge, which he can't overcome, and instead of finding ways of improving himself he blames his class specialisation and the challenge itself.
    Firebert, have you ever considered you are just not as good at playing your class as you thought?
    http://www.wowprogress.com/char_stat...ield.pg_damage
    I see two mages in the top 3, so l2p and learn to adapt

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by honj90 View Post
    I agree with Firefly's posts, but it's also true that WoW teaches you nothing about the game any more. Because everything in game besides the top end is so trivial (leveling, 5-mans, LFR) and there is absolutely no feedback on your performance (in the extremely rare case of dieing, having a 20sec corpse run is no real feedback) players play through the whole game with no idea what they're doing wrong. And when they come to the challenging parts (PG, raids etc.) for a lot of them it's really hard to adapt and realise that you need to do some research on your class and the encounter and think about what the optimal way to tackle a specific challenge is.
    Even in the past the only constructive feedback came from other players, and that was rare enough. I learned how to tank and heal effectively by reading guides online after getting chewed out by party members for making a ham of things. Proving Grounds would have been a godsend back in the day, would have saved me a lot of hassle.

  8. #368
    Stood in the Fire Snorkles's Avatar
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    Eurgh. There's not even 1 Enhance shaman in the top 100 (first appears at 308) and only 3 in the top 1000! Not looking forward to Endless on my Shammy ;(

  9. #369
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shed- View Post
    Firebert, have you ever considered you are just not as good at playing your class as you thought?
    Oh, I'm terrible at this game. I just see the flaws in the system more easily than most
    Quote Originally Posted by shed- View Post
    I see two mages in the top 3, so l2p and learn to adapt
    Which spec? Oh, yeah, that's right, it doesn't matter because all the specs work EXACTLY the same. /ohyou
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  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Oh, I'm terrible at this game. I just see the flaws in the system more easily than most

    Which spec? Oh, yeah, that's right, it doesn't matter because all the specs work EXACTLY the same. /ohyou
    So you are the only player that doesn't have access to multiple class specialisations? Or are you even worse at frost/arcane?
    I say again , l2p and learn to adapt. The problem is not the concept of proving grounds but the problem is your lack of skill.

  11. #371
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shed- View Post
    Are you even worse at frost/fire?
    Yes. Arc's my best spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by shed- View Post
    The problem is not the concept of proving grounds but the problem is your lack of skill.
    These aren't mutually exclusive, see my post above.
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  12. #372
    Scarab Lord b2121945's Avatar
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    Was trying to do it with my holy priest, without changing gems (spirit, haste/spirit and int/spirit) and enchants and it was so pathetic that I had to quit it.
    Logged on my shaman, with PvP gear (even PvP trinkets), without enchants, without gems, changed spec from ele to resto. Got gold on my first try. It was my first time healing as resto shaman in MoP.
    Last edited by b2121945; 2013-10-12 at 04:06 PM.

  13. #373
    I think proving grounds is great. I got all 3 endless 30 achieves in the first couple weeks. On a Disc Priest(died on wave 35), Prot Paladin (wave 40), and Frost Mage (wave 35). Each of them took 10-15 attempts, and each of them I got past 30 the first time I ever got past 20.

    Healing may not prepare you for raid style healing, it's still a great tool. As a priest, you might be able to "get by" in raids without doing things like making sure PoM is out or on cooldown, not watching rapture procs, rarely building up or using archangel stacks, not watching dispels, not using inner focus smartly, etc. Proving grounds makes sure you do this. Not to say I wasn't doing all of that before proving grounds, but it definitely made me realize how important they were.

    Tanking was good as well because it makes sure you how to position yourself, how to reduce damage intake, make sure you're never being hit in the back, keep threat off of a high-aggro target, use your CDs at precise times, and how to use other utility abilities to help improve your performance. The NPC does a static 70k hot on you and either AoEs or does a high single target attack. The damage the NPC does is several times the damage you do, so your DPS isn't too big of an issue, so you can mostly focus on staying alive. As a Paladin it made me change my UI around so I could better see how many stacks of bastion of glory I have, and how long I had on my eternal flame hot.

    Frost Mage was a bit easier. I could have gotten significantly farther but I was just happy I had my first proven title, and I opted not to use one of the berserker buffs on the first mini sha after 30. Frost mage is definitely probably one of the easiest proving grounds classes.

    If they didn't make the gear scale, it would be incredibly stupid. Every well geared healer would be able to spam their go to ability and probably live indefinitely, until the damage stacked so high to the point it could 1 shot your tanks. I could probably get to wave 150-200 if I was allowed to keep my current gear. Scaling puts everyone on roughly the same playing field, makes it so you might have to rethink your strategy and not handle every wave like you would in LFR boss, and makes it so you can easily jump in and compete on your alts. I do agree with the suggestion that they should have a "wardrobe" type thing where you can choose any 463 version of any item in the game, so people with 5-6 extra sockets on their gear and various OP trinkets wouldn't have a huge advantage.

    I'll definitely say due to scaling and other issues, some classes definitely have it easier. But that's not to say it's impossible for some classes. Every single class has gotten Endless 30+ on it's appropriate role. Every single spec probably has as well, though I can't 100% confirm this.

    I will tell you this though. In my opinion, if someone can get endless 30+, they're more than likely to be able to hold their own in heroic raids. If someone can't get gold after seriously trying, I sincerely doubt their ability to perform in heroic raids. Can't get silver after trying? And I honestly think they're a bad player that shouldn't move out of LFR.

    It was definitely fun for me, especially when wowprogress added the leaderboards. The titles were cool, the acheivements were cool, but I'm probably not going to go back anytime soon, unless I level a new class or am incredibly bored and try to break my records.

    Edit: looking through some of these replies, most of them seem to be "it sucks because i have a hard time getting gold".
    Last edited by Vedni; 2013-10-12 at 07:08 PM.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    With this "plz carry me"-attitude no wonder there's so many bad players, Firefly has a great point but people are just too stubborn to accept it.

    And lol at that person adding people to his/her ignore-list after they've given solid advice for how to improve your game and overall proving grounds-experience.
    Jesus H. Christ, read everything else I say. I'm not talking about "being carried". I'm talking about designing a game that forces people to learn.

  15. #375
    Proving Grounds benefits two sorts of people, I think: people who actually have the motivation and desire to get better at their class, and people who want a personal challenge. I see a lot of people complain that it doesn't really give enough feedback or tell you exactly what spells to use when. I think that sort of person is out of luck, and I doubt any in-game learning tool would really help them; if you are not motivated enough to look through your spell book and read all the spell descriptions and use your brain to figure what would be a good ability to use in what situation, there's little hope that you would be motivated enough to wipe repeatedly and perfect a strategy or try different strategies, whether it be in PG or on a raid boss.

    I haven't been a hardcore raider for a long time, but I still enjoy the game including solo and small group content. Things like PG and challenge modes (and to a lesser extent, Brawler's guild, in which gear often made all the difference) let me prove to myself and others that just because I'm not in a heroic raid guild doesn't mean I am crap at the game.

    I got Proven Assailant the day after the patch came out on my mage, and while I do think frost is better, primarily because frozen orb is an awesome 1 minute cooldown that corresponds exactly to each wave, arcane is competitive as well because of the strong living bombs. To the guy posting repeatedly about how arcane sucks, I would suggest adjusting your approach. Frost bomb is now garbage in pvp, in most raid situations, and in proving grounds as well. I think living bomb is by far the best choice in PG because it does the most damage and only has a 1 second gcd, despite the 3 target limit. I also found glyph of double blink to be key for quickly moving around behind the shield guys and directing the amber orbs where I want them to go. You still have ice block if you screw up once in a while and get hit by one.

    Healing was a different story on my priest (it has been rightly noted and bemoaned that priests are the only class without an interrupt and the only class without a stun). It took me a good couple of hours to get gold and I couldn't get past 8 or 9 waves into endless without reforging and finding more optimal gear (my trinkets, for example, totally suck when scaled down in PG). I'll probably be motivated enough to do that at some point, though it's not a burning desire for me since 95% of my energy is devoted to my mage main.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    The nerf to everything means that Frostjaw Deep Frost Bomb Barrage doesn't do it as Arcane, just not enough stats.

    And you see why I'd like a spec-balanced PG? :3
    Or just do it as a different spec.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Meciel View Post
    Proving Grounds benefits two sorts of people, I think: people who actually have the motivation and desire to get better at their class, and people who want a personal challenge. I see a lot of people complain that it doesn't really give enough feedback or tell you exactly what spells to use when. I think that sort of person is out of luck, and I doubt any in-game learning tool would really help them; if you are not motivated enough to look through your spell book and read all the spell descriptions and use your brain to figure what would be a good ability to use in what situation, there's little hope that you would be motivated enough to wipe repeatedly and perfect a strategy or try different strategies, whether it be in PG or on a raid boss.

    I haven't been a hardcore raider for a long time, but I still enjoy the game including solo and small group content. Things like PG and challenge modes (and to a lesser extent, Brawler's guild, in which gear often made all the difference) let me prove to myself and others that just because I'm not in a heroic raid guild doesn't mean I am crap at the game.

    I got Proven Assailant the day after the patch came out on my mage, and while I do think frost is better, primarily because frozen orb is an awesome 1 minute cooldown that corresponds exactly to each wave, arcane is competitive as well because of the strong living bombs. To the guy posting repeatedly about how arcane sucks, I would suggest adjusting your approach. Frost bomb is now garbage in pvp, in most raid situations, and in proving grounds as well. I think living bomb is by far the best choice in PG because it does the most damage and only has a 1 second gcd, despite the 3 target limit. I also found glyph of double blink to be key for quickly moving around behind the shield guys and directing the amber orbs where I want them to go. You still have ice block if you screw up once in a while and get hit by one.

    Healing was a different story on my priest (it has been rightly noted and bemoaned that priests are the only class without an interrupt and the only class without a stun). It took me a good couple of hours to get gold and I couldn't get past 8 or 9 waves into endless without reforging and finding more optimal gear (my trinkets, for example, totally suck when scaled down in PG). I'll probably be motivated enough to do that at some point, though it's not a burning desire for me since 95% of my energy is devoted to my mage main.
    This is a good example of the right kind of mindset to have, take note Firebert. This person makes it work rather than cry about it and demand that they be catered to. I'm tempted to gear up my new 90 mage and do it as arcane and post screen shots just to show you it CAN be done. IMO you whine too much and practice too little if you're having trouble in there getting silver/gold or w.e. as arcane.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Oh, I'm terrible at this game. I just see the flaws in the system more easily than most

    Which spec? Oh, yeah, that's right, it doesn't matter because all the specs work EXACTLY the same. /ohyou
    You're admittedly terrible at this game, yet seek to change something that... you know what I'm just gonna stop. GJ trolling. Bravo.

  17. #377
    High Overlord rhapso's Avatar
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    I really like the challenge of proving grounds, but I dont like that it is so much easier with higher ilvl gear because of the increases number of sockets on gear and that I have to make a completely different set for it - and I'm not talking about healers only, same goes for tanks.
    Doing them in actual 463-476ilvl gear is a completely different thing that with current 2-3 socket items and sadly the tank PG revolves a lot around kiting and letting your healer offtank some mobs, which isn't my idea of being a good tank.

    Another feature I'd like is to be able to get back into the PG at a higher wave, starting at wave0 everytime just to wipe after 30+ mins at a similar point again is frustrating, It wouldn't have to be at every wave but like every 10 waves you get a new "spawnpoint", that'd be great

    EDIT: Imo PGs aren't really the way to learn your role, but they can learn you SOME key elements - and I'd say for most new players the threshold to actually try and do it is quite high (with the increased difficulty due to less sockets on gear etc.)
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  18. #378
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lokatii View Post
    You're admittedly terrible at this game, yet seek to change something that...
    Because only those that have the Endless achievement are allowed to give feedback...
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  19. #379
    Brewmaster HavelTheRock's Avatar
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    I think a lot of people forget that it's not intended as another end game feature it's for new players to learn basic mechanics such as interrupts, avoiding shit and standing behind (at least for dps I haven't tried tank/heals). They've said a few times it may replace ilvl as requirements for LFG tool, which if they do I think is a great idea. Someone's who done a little bit of that IMO is better to take than someone who's dinged 90 gone straight to TI and decked out 496+ only to find out they have no idea how to play the game.

  20. #380
    I only did the Bronze healer as holy priest, thought it was boring, and didn't bother trying silver - but I've always preferred raid heal to 5 man. I'd be annoyed if it was needed for LFR unless I found a guild again, I'd think other achieves I have are enough.... I just have other things I'd rather spend time on, I know how to heal a raid.

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