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  1. #381
    After getting the title on my tank, I tried Endless on my holy priest and gotta say, it feels impossible. I only reached wave 9 once but most times I can't make it past wave 5 (even if I GS the tank and channel DH). I tried changing reforges from haste to crit and vice versa, changed FDCL to mindbender and vice versa, but the damage spikes are laughable as any member can get one shotted at any time. I run with over 9.5k spirit and mostly use Renew + Heal with the occasional GH, Cascade (refreshes Renew), and glyphed BH for emergency (refreshes 3 Renews) and I consider myself a fairly solid Hpriest, but I can't seem to be able to keep my mana, even by using Mindbender + Trinket on cd. I don't know if the spec is just bad for Endless or I'm doing something wrong but this is very frustrating.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhapso View Post
    I really like the challenge of proving grounds, but I dont like that it is so much easier with higher ilvl gear because of the increases number of sockets on gear and that I have to make a completely different set for it - and I'm not talking about healers only, same goes for tanks.
    Doing them in actual 463-476ilvl gear is a completely different thing that with current 2-3 socket items and sadly the tank PG revolves a lot around kiting and letting your healer offtank some mobs, which isn't my idea of being a good tank.

    Another feature I'd like is to be able to get back into the PG at a higher wave, starting at wave0 everytime just to wipe after 30+ mins at a similar point again is frustrating, It wouldn't have to be at every wave but like every 10 waves you get a new "spawnpoint", that'd be great

    EDIT: Imo PGs aren't really the way to learn your role, but they can learn you SOME key elements - and I'd say for most new players the threshold to actually try and do it is quite high (with the increased difficulty due to less sockets on gear etc.)
    I never let my healer off tank anything, and I even heal her if he's accidently taking damage (glyphed Death Coil, Gift of the Naruu).

    Deffo agree about the checkpoints, At least for the same instance. If we leave the instance its reseted and we'll have to go from start.

  2. #382
    I found Gold somewhat challenging on my elemental shaman simply because I didn't do enough dps. Sometimes I would finish the wave with 6 seconds left, sometimes the same fight I couldn't make on time because I got no mastery procs.

  3. #383
    The Patient Eyechewer's Avatar
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    I did gold dps PG on my arms warrior (fully pvp gear, didn't have a single piece of pve gear)

    Honestly was one of the harder things i've experienced in the game. Took me a lot of tries. If your looking for a challenge from the DPS PG (which people say is easy) try doing it in pvp gear

  4. #384
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    I don't understand - I think the 463 scaling is a pretty important concept to PGs. At end-of-xpac gear levels, you can essentially stack something to make your job infinitely easier (whether it's DPS, heal, or tank), so encounters get more mechanically difficult to make up for the ease at which you play your class. PGs are the opposite, they are mechanically easy (they just require a wide breath of your abilities, not just your 1-6) but are a strain on your actual role - hence the "proving."

    Any HC raider whose been doing heroics for more than an expansion knows that there's nothing more difficult (and very little more satisfying) than killing hard heroic bosses in early expansion blues. What do you think world first raiders relish? Killing bosses in low ilevels. When I eventually kill H-Garrosh, my ilvl will probably be 10 or so higher than these WF raiders, and people after me will have even higher gear. In a gear progression game, gear nerfs the difficulty of things, and gear equalization (like in CMs and PGs) tests skill better than scaling mobs up to your ilevel. Our disc priest, who is, granted, the best priest I've ever played with, constantly complains about how boring healing gets as he gets more gear, because he's not worried about spamming big nukes.

    As another anecdote, I was pushed into heroic raiding by early Cataclysm heroics. Our resto shaman in our casual guild was trying to heal that Tol'vir heroic and failing miserably, and insisting it couldn't be done. I had leveled my spriest first, so as a challenge, I thought I'd level my shaman to see if healing was really as difficult as he said. When I got to 90, and was healing those unnerfed heroics, I was really working, and struggling, to conserve mana, weave healing waves, lower my overhealing, increase my efficiency, until I was the healer everyone wanted to queue with. This pushed me into looking for like-minded people in a guild, that got me into heroic raiding because my old guild couldn't kill Magmaw, and I joined a guild which went 12/13H (we said a big fuck you to H-Ascendant Council 10 man), and then rocked every tier since. I've since switched to hunter, but the attitude was bred in those early heroics, where the gear simply required you to be more skillful because you couldn't make it up with gear/

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cityguy193 View Post
    Do you hate balance druids and mistweavers? Cause its nearly impossible for both to do gold due to how massively they are linked to their ilevel.

    I was told, in order to pass the healing test on gold on my monk, I would need to gem all spirit and reforge into all spirit and spam a single skill, and play in a way that is not accurate in the way the class plays. That does not test competence.
    That shows zero about skill level.
    And this is what I don't get, the "accuracy" of how the spec plays. That was exactly HOW that spec played in the first weeks of MSV. That's what PGs are supposed to simulate, the skill needed to down fights when you can't just reach a certain haste threshold and be done with it.

  5. #385
    @ eschatological . lowest part....

    are we ignoring that our spells cost almost twice as much (if not triple) then 5.0?

  6. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I don't have legendaries or BiS gear either but I never OOM because I'm consistently pop my mana tide as soon as it's efficient. Unfortunately I can't even do that easily in PG because I tend to fall behind on the constant barrage of damage that the NPCs take if I let mana tide go its full length. That's another problem you seldom have in raid. Unless something goes terribly wrong or you're trying a special tactic for a fight there is always a back-up healer to pick up the slack while you use your focus potion or your mana regen skill.
    Weird, I wonder if there is a talent for shamans that allow you to put down two water totems down at the same time. Oh, oops. Hell, I only leveled my shaman to 90 2 weeks ago, and I know that there is such a talent. Not to mention the only water totem that is rotational last 15s with a 30s CD, leaving you a free 15s for the 16s Mana Tide Totem even if you don't use Totemic Persistence. Unless you're literally saying the 1 GCD it costs to cast mana tide totem is too costly a GCD which causes you to fall behind on healing, which I outright don't believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sagajin View Post
    @ eschatological . lowest part....

    are we ignoring that our spells cost almost twice as much (if not triple) then 5.0?
    Are we ignoring how OP MWs were in the first tier of content and how their mana costs brought them more in line with other healers?

    Or are we ignoring that heroic encounters, even in MSV, were still more mechanically difficult than anything asked of (the general) you in PGs?

  7. #387
    just saying... they dont play the same like in mogu raids like you claimd thats all

  8. #388
    I found it interesting enough, I just thought it would have been a little more aimed at teaching you the skills of your class. Applying slows, stuns, applying CC, interrupting abilities that damn near kill you or otherwise hinder your performance in the instance (KT's Frostbolt, Stormcaller Brundir's Lightning Whirl), kiting adds, target switching, avoiding standing in void zones, knowing when to AOE and when to single target DPS focus burn mobs.


    I'm not a huge fan of the scaling factor though. I understand the theory behind it, and so you can;t just overlevel and powerhouse your way through it, but as a fury warrior who relies heavily on a stat like crit which determines whether I am to able to use some of my abilities, it's annoying having the stat gutted back to 463 item level amounts. Maybe 496 would have been nicer.
    Last edited by Cernunnos; 2013-10-13 at 08:23 AM.
    My name is Cernunnos, I will love you like no other, I have died a thousand deaths, each time I died I thought of you.

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Blachshma View Post
    After getting the title on my tank, I tried Endless on my holy priest and gotta say, it feels impossible. I only reached wave 9 once but most times I can't make it past wave 5 (even if I GS the tank and channel DH). I tried changing reforges from haste to crit and vice versa, changed FDCL to mindbender and vice versa, but the damage spikes are laughable as any member can get one shotted at any time. I run with over 9.5k spirit and mostly use Renew + Heal with the occasional GH, Cascade (refreshes Renew), and glyphed BH for emergency (refreshes 3 Renews) and I consider myself a fairly solid Hpriest, but I can't seem to be able to keep my mana, even by using Mindbender + Trinket on cd. I don't know if the spec is just bad for Endless or I'm doing something wrong but this is very frustrating.
    I don't know much about Holy, but here are some of my thoughts on this topic in random order:

    -I'd suggest dropping Cascade. Even though it refreshes renews, there are very few times where you'd want 5 renews refreshed and it's a pretty big mana sink.. Sticking to Serenity + Heal refreshes is probably better.

    -I would also check if I'm close to hitting an (unglyphed) renew breakpoint in downscaled gear and go for it. If not stick to as much mastery as possible I guess.

    -Twist of Fate is an amazing talent for Priests in general. You can probably have close to 100% uptime in PG, just throw a Holy Fire at the mob your group is currently focusing when it's low hp (you can also learn the pattern to easily predict which one their going to focus). In a pinch you can also use Divine Star (assuming you took it over Cascade).

    - Make sure you're prioritizing the correct targets. Sometimes for example I will delay my dispel a bit to top someone with the tunneler debuff first. As an other example, I am always my last priority because I know I won't get hit by the environmental effects and I can use a Healthstone if things get problematic.

    -Grip party members if they stand in the fire

    -Learn to predict the incoming damage. Sometimes you need to use big heals (FH, PoH), sometimes you can wait and let more efficient heals to do their job. Although certainly do not be afraid to use PoH if all your party is low.

    -Are you using Void Shift to deal with one of those damage spikes? Void shift+Healthstone+Desperate Prayer is essentially a Lay on Hands on a 5min cd.

    - Make sure you use a a flask + 300 stat food (ideally both intellect)

    - I don't know what trinket you're using, but some have really poor downscaled versions. If I remember correctly Relic of Chi-Ji and Spirits of the Sun are very good PG trinkets. That definitely shouldn't matter for gold, but if you are really struggling getting a relic might help.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by rhapso View Post
    I really like the challenge of proving grounds, but I dont like that it is so much easier with higher ilvl gear because of the increases number of sockets on gear and that I have to make a completely different set for it - and I'm not talking about healers only, same goes for tanks.
    Doing them in actual 463-476ilvl gear is a completely different thing that with current 2-3 socket items and sadly the tank PG revolves a lot around kiting and letting your healer offtank some mobs, which isn't my idea of being a good tank.
    I actually managed to a reasonable wave (123) as a BrM tank in mostly pvp gear (granted, it is semi-custom-made as a CM set with 0 mastery) but still with very few sockets and bad socket bonusses so I don't think the gain in a few extra sockets will do to much of a difference.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by honj90 View Post
    I don't know much about Holy, but here are some of my thoughts on this topic in random order:

    <snip awesome class/spec specific tips>
    I think it might be quite nice of these popped up as hints while doing Proving Grounds, maybe after a fail. They'd probably be easier to keep up to date compared to mob dialogue or other scripted events as well.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Big View Post
    I actually managed to a reasonable wave (123) as a BrM tank in mostly pvp gear (granted, it is semi-custom-made as a CM set with 0 mastery) but still with very few sockets and bad socket bonusses so I don't think the gain in a few extra sockets will do to much of a difference.
    Why would you torture yourself that way man, why? If thats fun to you well good I guess, I'd be done with it after wave 30 but thats just me.

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    Why would you torture yourself that way man, why? If thats fun to you well good I guess, I'd be done with it after wave 30 but thats just me.
    You know, I asked myself the same question getting past wave 50. 2 hours, 6 minutes was the time overall, and just a second of being unfocused killed me.

  14. #394
    Herald of the Titans Duridi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blachshma View Post
    Deffo agree about the checkpoints, At least for the same instance. If we leave the instance its reseted and we'll have to go from start.
    Dunno about dps and tanks, but that would kinda deafeat the point as healer. I find the challenge to be in managing my mana, so if I could just go in and out every 10th wave, I'd be going on forever... Would definitly live up to the name "Endless mode" though.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Duridi View Post
    Dunno about dps and tanks, but that would kinda deafeat the point as healer. I find the challenge to be in managing my mana, so if I could just go in and out every 10th wave, I'd be going on forever... Would definitly live up to the name "Endless mode" though.
    You get to drink to full mana after every 10th wave so what's the difference?

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by honj90 View Post
    I don't know much about Holy, but here are some of my thoughts on this topic in random order:

    -I'd suggest dropping Cascade. Even though it refreshes renews, there are very few times where you'd want 5 renews refreshed and it's a pretty big mana sink.. Sticking to Serenity + Heal refreshes is probably better.

    -I would also check if I'm close to hitting an (unglyphed) renew breakpoint in downscaled gear and go for it. If not stick to as much mastery as possible I guess.

    -Twist of Fate is an amazing talent for Priests in general. You can probably have close to 100% uptime in PG, just throw a Holy Fire at the mob your group is currently focusing when it's low hp (you can also learn the pattern to easily predict which one their going to focus). In a pinch you can also use Divine Star (assuming you took it over Cascade).

    - Make sure you're prioritizing the correct targets. Sometimes for example I will delay my dispel a bit to top someone with the tunneler debuff first. As an other example, I am always my last priority because I know I won't get hit by the environmental effects and I can use a Healthstone if things get problematic.

    -Grip party members if they stand in the fire

    -Learn to predict the incoming damage. Sometimes you need to use big heals (FH, PoH), sometimes you can wait and let more efficient heals to do their job. Although certainly do not be afraid to use PoH if all your party is low.

    -Are you using Void Shift to deal with one of those damage spikes? Void shift+Healthstone+Desperate Prayer is essentially a Lay on Hands on a 5min cd.

    - Make sure you use a a flask + 300 stat food (ideally both intellect)

    - I don't know what trinket you're using, but some have really poor downscaled versions. If I remember correctly Relic of Chi-Ji and Spirits of the Sun are very good PG trinkets. That definitely shouldn't matter for gold, but if you are really struggling getting a relic might help.
    Good tips here, thanks. But I think I'll stick to the spirit flask, I can't affrod losing any spirit at this point.

  17. #397
    I've never been one for wave type games, I think I made it to gold first time doing the tank one, died on like the 9th wave or so and went eh I don't feel like going through 8 waves of this crap again.

    Its also kind of stale as a bear tank because the whole expansion I've worked to get to the point where I have all this crit and haste so I can have tons of RPS and then to go in and have it all taken away makes it even more boring when your used to critting 75% of the time. I think the better solution would have been to make the mobs scale up to your ilvl rather than you scale down.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Duridi View Post
    Dunno about dps and tanks, but that would kinda deafeat the point as healer. I find the challenge to be in managing my mana, so if I could just go in and out every 10th wave, I'd be going on forever... Would definitly live up to the name "Endless mode" though.
    Since you can drink after 10 waves anyway, it wouldn't hurt to fill up your mana bar and go when ready for the next 10 waves. I mean, you passed the current 10, so why do you have to prove you can do it all over again. The whole point in Endless are the buffs the mobs are getting after each wave, and every set of 10 waves is tougher than the previous ones. If I passed one set, I'd like to be able to practice on the next. If you do the analogy to raids, once you've cleared a raid on normal mode, you can go HC. You can also go for more normal runs, but you aren't forced to, you can switch exclusively to HC.

  19. #399
    High Overlord rhapso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big View Post
    I actually managed to a reasonable wave (123) as a BrM tank in mostly pvp gear (granted, it is semi-custom-made as a CM set with 0 mastery) but still with very few sockets and bad socket bonusses so I don't think the gain in a few extra sockets will do to much of a difference.
    Kudos to that, but I didn't say it was impossible, I just mentioned that it is a huge difference. Moreso the sheer dominance of monks in the tank bracket seems to indicate your toolkit is wastly better than any other tanks, which decreases the need to have an optimal gear (and pvp gear isnt different to pve gear, with the exception of pvp trinkets anymore - just added resilence-stats that dont take points away from your ilvl).
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  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Blachshma View Post
    Good tips here, thanks. But I think I'll stick to the spirit flask, I can't affrod losing any spirit at this point.
    Assuming your stat priorities are something like spirit (to X amount)>intellect>other secondary stats, which sounds reasonable in downscaled gear, if you wanted to be optimal you would need to:

    1. Reforge for maximum spirit
    2.Use pure spirit gems on all sockets, ignoring socket bonuses (exception possibly helm)
    3. Only if you still haven't reached the X amount of spirit you set at the start you should use spirit consumables.

    The reason is that in gems you can trade 160int to get 320 spirit (so 1:2) while in consumables you trade 1000 int to get 1000 spirit (1:1). Even forgoing the socket bonuses for pure spirit gems is a better trade than that.

    EDIT: Obviously if you don't want to reforge/re-gem specifically for PG you might need spirit flasks. Personally I avoid them at all costs though
    Last edited by honj90; 2013-10-13 at 03:34 PM.

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