Proving Grounds - Success?

[Deleted]

I should just block you because you don't seem to understand what I'm saying, and just repeat your mantra back to me that PG as Fire/Frost should be exactly the same as PG Arcane regardless of the toolkit each spec has.

Are mobs or quests different depending on your spec? Are raids adapting to raid group composition? Do non-pet classes get an extra pet to solo Ordos elites? Do balance druids get the amount of CC you have in any spec to help them complete PG (or even leveling) easier? Can you do high ranks brawler's guild in a tank or healer spec?

There is nothing in this game that changes depending on the class or spec you play. You are playing a pure dps class and want a spec specific PG. Hybrid classes often don't even have the option to use their off-spec to complete PG. Which means you basically would want a PG desinged for 34 different specs which is an enormous waste of resources

You could make an argument for different melee and ranged DPS proving grounds but that's about it.

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With this "plz carry me"-attitude no wonder there's so many bad players, Firefly has a great point but people are just too stubborn to accept it.

I agree with Firefly's posts, but it's also true that WoW teaches you nothing about the game any more. Because everything in game besides the top end is so trivial (leveling, 5-mans, LFR) and there is absolutely no feedback on your performance (in the extremely rare case of dieing, having a 20sec corpse run is no real feedback) players play through the whole game with no idea what they're doing wrong. And when they come to the challenging parts (PG, raids etc.) for a lot of them it's really hard to adapt and realise that you need to do some research on your class and the encounter and think about what the optimal way to tackle a specific challenge is.

[Deleted]

I don't know why people are still responding to Firebert. He's just one of those guys who think they are better than they really are.
He probably got that idea in late cataclysm or late wotlk with the 30% buff in the final tier raids.
Now he is presented a challenge, which he can't overcome, and instead of finding ways of improving himself he blames his class specialisation and the challenge itself.
Firebert, have you ever considered you are just not as good at playing your class as you thought?
http://www.wowprogress.com/char_stat...ield.pg_damage
I see two mages in the top 3, so l2p and learn to adapt

[Deleted]

I agree with Firefly's posts, but it's also true that WoW teaches you nothing about the game any more. Because everything in game besides the top end is so trivial (leveling, 5-mans, LFR) and there is absolutely no feedback on your performance (in the extremely rare case of dieing, having a 20sec corpse run is no real feedback) players play through the whole game with no idea what they're doing wrong. And when they come to the challenging parts (PG, raids etc.) for a lot of them it's really hard to adapt and realise that you need to do some research on your class and the encounter and think about what the optimal way to tackle a specific challenge is.

Even in the past the only constructive feedback came from other players, and that was rare enough. I learned how to tank and heal effectively by reading guides online after getting chewed out by party members for making a ham of things. Proving Grounds would have been a godsend back in the day, would have saved me a lot of hassle.

[Snorkles]

http://www.wowprogress.com/char_stat...ield.pg_damage

Eurgh. There's not even 1 Enhance shaman in the top 100 (first appears at 308) and only 3 in the top 1000! Not looking forward to Endless on my Shammy ;(

[Firebert]

Firebert, have you ever considered you are just not as good at playing your class as you thought?

Oh, I'm terrible at this game. I just see the flaws in the system more easily than most

I see two mages in the top 3, so l2p and learn to adapt

Which spec? Oh, yeah, that's right, it doesn't matter because all the specs work EXACTLY the same. /ohyou

[Deleted]

Oh, I'm terrible at this game. I just see the flaws in the system more easily than most

Which spec? Oh, yeah, that's right, it doesn't matter because all the specs work EXACTLY the same. /ohyou

So you are the only player that doesn't have access to multiple class specialisations? Or are you even worse at frost/arcane?
I say again , l2p and learn to adapt. The problem is not the concept of proving grounds but the problem is your lack of skill.

[Firebert]

Are you even worse at frost/fire?

Yes. Arc's my best spec.

The problem is not the concept of proving grounds but the problem is your lack of skill.

These aren't mutually exclusive, see my post above.

[Deleted]

Was trying to do it with my holy priest, without changing gems (spirit, haste/spirit and int/spirit) and enchants and it was so pathetic that I had to quit it.
Logged on my shaman, with PvP gear (even PvP trinkets), without enchants, without gems, changed spec from ele to resto. Got gold on my first try. It was my first time healing as resto shaman in MoP.

[Notdev]

I think proving grounds is great. I got all 3 endless 30 achieves in the first couple weeks. On a Disc Priest(died on wave 35), Prot Paladin (wave 40), and Frost Mage (wave 35). Each of them took 10-15 attempts, and each of them I got past 30 the first time I ever got past 20.

Healing may not prepare you for raid style healing, it's still a great tool. As a priest, you might be able to "get by" in raids without doing things like making sure PoM is out or on cooldown, not watching rapture procs, rarely building up or using archangel stacks, not watching dispels, not using inner focus smartly, etc. Proving grounds makes sure you do this. Not to say I wasn't doing all of that before proving grounds, but it definitely made me realize how important they were.

Tanking was good as well because it makes sure you how to position yourself, how to reduce damage intake, make sure you're never being hit in the back, keep threat off of a high-aggro target, use your CDs at precise times, and how to use other utility abilities to help improve your performance. The NPC does a static 70k hot on you and either AoEs or does a high single target attack. The damage the NPC does is several times the damage you do, so your DPS isn't too big of an issue, so you can mostly focus on staying alive. As a Paladin it made me change my UI around so I could better see how many stacks of bastion of glory I have, and how long I had on my eternal flame hot.

Frost Mage was a bit easier. I could have gotten significantly farther but I was just happy I had my first proven title, and I opted not to use one of the berserker buffs on the first mini sha after 30. Frost mage is definitely probably one of the easiest proving grounds classes.

If they didn't make the gear scale, it would be incredibly stupid. Every well geared healer would be able to spam their go to ability and probably live indefinitely, until the damage stacked so high to the point it could 1 shot your tanks. I could probably get to wave 150-200 if I was allowed to keep my current gear. Scaling puts everyone on roughly the same playing field, makes it so you might have to rethink your strategy and not handle every wave like you would in LFR boss, and makes it so you can easily jump in and compete on your alts. I do agree with the suggestion that they should have a "wardrobe" type thing where you can choose any 463 version of any item in the game, so people with 5-6 extra sockets on their gear and various OP trinkets wouldn't have a huge advantage.

I'll definitely say due to scaling and other issues, some classes definitely have it easier. But that's not to say it's impossible for some classes. Every single class has gotten Endless 30+ on it's appropriate role. Every single spec probably has as well, though I can't 100% confirm this.

I will tell you this though. In my opinion, if someone can get endless 30+, they're more than likely to be able to hold their own in heroic raids. If someone can't get gold after seriously trying, I sincerely doubt their ability to perform in heroic raids. Can't get silver after trying? And I honestly think they're a bad player that shouldn't move out of LFR.

It was definitely fun for me, especially when wowprogress added the leaderboards. The titles were cool, the acheivements were cool, but I'm probably not going to go back anytime soon, unless I level a new class or am incredibly bored and try to break my records.

Edit: looking through some of these replies, most of them seem to be "it sucks because i have a hard time getting gold".

[Otimus]

With this "plz carry me"-attitude no wonder there's so many bad players, Firefly has a great point but people are just too stubborn to accept it.

And lol at that person adding people to his/her ignore-list after they've given solid advice for how to improve your game and overall proving grounds-experience.

Jesus H. Christ, read everything else I say. I'm not talking about "being carried". I'm talking about designing a game that forces people to learn.

[Meciel]

Proving Grounds benefits two sorts of people, I think: people who actually have the motivation and desire to get better at their class, and people who want a personal challenge. I see a lot of people complain that it doesn't really give enough feedback or tell you exactly what spells to use when. I think that sort of person is out of luck, and I doubt any in-game learning tool would really help them; if you are not motivated enough to look through your spell book and read all the spell descriptions and use your brain to figure what would be a good ability to use in what situation, there's little hope that you would be motivated enough to wipe repeatedly and perfect a strategy or try different strategies, whether it be in PG or on a raid boss.

I haven't been a hardcore raider for a long time, but I still enjoy the game including solo and small group content. Things like PG and challenge modes (and to a lesser extent, Brawler's guild, in which gear often made all the difference) let me prove to myself and others that just because I'm not in a heroic raid guild doesn't mean I am crap at the game.

I got Proven Assailant the day after the patch came out on my mage, and while I do think frost is better, primarily because frozen orb is an awesome 1 minute cooldown that corresponds exactly to each wave, arcane is competitive as well because of the strong living bombs. To the guy posting repeatedly about how arcane sucks, I would suggest adjusting your approach. Frost bomb is now garbage in pvp, in most raid situations, and in proving grounds as well. I think living bomb is by far the best choice in PG because it does the most damage and only has a 1 second gcd, despite the 3 target limit. I also found glyph of double blink to be key for quickly moving around behind the shield guys and directing the amber orbs where I want them to go. You still have ice block if you screw up once in a while and get hit by one.

Healing was a different story on my priest (it has been rightly noted and bemoaned that priests are the only class without an interrupt and the only class without a stun). It took me a good couple of hours to get gold and I couldn't get past 8 or 9 waves into endless without reforging and finding more optimal gear (my trinkets, for example, totally suck when scaled down in PG). I'll probably be motivated enough to do that at some point, though it's not a burning desire for me since 95% of my energy is devoted to my mage main.

[lokatii]

The nerf to everything means that Frostjaw Deep Frost Bomb Barrage doesn't do it as Arcane, just not enough stats.

And you see why I'd like a spec-balanced PG? :3

Or just do it as a different spec.

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Proving Grounds benefits two sorts of people, I think: people who actually have the motivation and desire to get better at their class, and people who want a personal challenge. I see a lot of people complain that it doesn't really give enough feedback or tell you exactly what spells to use when. I think that sort of person is out of luck, and I doubt any in-game learning tool would really help them; if you are not motivated enough to look through your spell book and read all the spell descriptions and use your brain to figure what would be a good ability to use in what situation, there's little hope that you would be motivated enough to wipe repeatedly and perfect a strategy or try different strategies, whether it be in PG or on a raid boss.

I haven't been a hardcore raider for a long time, but I still enjoy the game including solo and small group content. Things like PG and challenge modes (and to a lesser extent, Brawler's guild, in which gear often made all the difference) let me prove to myself and others that just because I'm not in a heroic raid guild doesn't mean I am crap at the game.

I got Proven Assailant the day after the patch came out on my mage, and while I do think frost is better, primarily because frozen orb is an awesome 1 minute cooldown that corresponds exactly to each wave, arcane is competitive as well because of the strong living bombs. To the guy posting repeatedly about how arcane sucks, I would suggest adjusting your approach. Frost bomb is now garbage in pvp, in most raid situations, and in proving grounds as well. I think living bomb is by far the best choice in PG because it does the most damage and only has a 1 second gcd, despite the 3 target limit. I also found glyph of double blink to be key for quickly moving around behind the shield guys and directing the amber orbs where I want them to go. You still have ice block if you screw up once in a while and get hit by one.

Healing was a different story on my priest (it has been rightly noted and bemoaned that priests are the only class without an interrupt and the only class without a stun). It took me a good couple of hours to get gold and I couldn't get past 8 or 9 waves into endless without reforging and finding more optimal gear (my trinkets, for example, totally suck when scaled down in PG). I'll probably be motivated enough to do that at some point, though it's not a burning desire for me since 95% of my energy is devoted to my mage main.

This is a good example of the right kind of mindset to have, take note Firebert. This person makes it work rather than cry about it and demand that they be catered to. I'm tempted to gear up my new 90 mage and do it as arcane and post screen shots just to show you it CAN be done. IMO you whine too much and practice too little if you're having trouble in there getting silver/gold or w.e. as arcane.

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Oh, I'm terrible at this game. I just see the flaws in the system more easily than most

Which spec? Oh, yeah, that's right, it doesn't matter because all the specs work EXACTLY the same. /ohyou

You're admittedly terrible at this game, yet seek to change something that... you know what I'm just gonna stop. GJ trolling. Bravo.

[rhapso]

I really like the challenge of proving grounds, but I dont like that it is so much easier with higher ilvl gear because of the increases number of sockets on gear and that I have to make a completely different set for it - and I'm not talking about healers only, same goes for tanks.
Doing them in actual 463-476ilvl gear is a completely different thing that with current 2-3 socket items and sadly the tank PG revolves a lot around kiting and letting your healer offtank some mobs, which isn't my idea of being a good tank.

Another feature I'd like is to be able to get back into the PG at a higher wave, starting at wave0 everytime just to wipe after 30+ mins at a similar point again is frustrating, It wouldn't have to be at every wave but like every 10 waves you get a new "spawnpoint", that'd be great

EDIT: Imo PGs aren't really the way to learn your role, but they can learn you SOME key elements - and I'd say for most new players the threshold to actually try and do it is quite high (with the increased difficulty due to less sockets on gear etc.)

[Firebert]

You're admittedly terrible at this game, yet seek to change something that...

Because only those that have the Endless achievement are allowed to give feedback...

[Rusken]

I think a lot of people forget that it's not intended as another end game feature it's for new players to learn basic mechanics such as interrupts, avoiding shit and standing behind (at least for dps I haven't tried tank/heals). They've said a few times it may replace ilvl as requirements for LFG tool, which if they do I think is a great idea. Someone's who done a little bit of that IMO is better to take than someone who's dinged 90 gone straight to TI and decked out 496+ only to find out they have no idea how to play the game.

[rebecca191]

I only did the Bronze healer as holy priest, thought it was boring, and didn't bother trying silver - but I've always preferred raid heal to 5 man. I'd be annoyed if it was needed for LFR unless I found a guild again, I'd think other achieves I have are enough.... I just have other things I'd rather spend time on, I know how to heal a raid.

[Blachshma]

After getting the title on my tank, I tried Endless on my holy priest and gotta say, it feels impossible. I only reached wave 9 once but most times I can't make it past wave 5 (even if I GS the tank and channel DH). I tried changing reforges from haste to crit and vice versa, changed FDCL to mindbender and vice versa, but the damage spikes are laughable as any member can get one shotted at any time. I run with over 9.5k spirit and mostly use Renew + Heal with the occasional GH, Cascade (refreshes Renew), and glyphed BH for emergency (refreshes 3 Renews) and I consider myself a fairly solid Hpriest, but I can't seem to be able to keep my mana, even by using Mindbender + Trinket on cd. I don't know if the spec is just bad for Endless or I'm doing something wrong but this is very frustrating.

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I really like the challenge of proving grounds, but I dont like that it is so much easier with higher ilvl gear because of the increases number of sockets on gear and that I have to make a completely different set for it - and I'm not talking about healers only, same goes for tanks.
Doing them in actual 463-476ilvl gear is a completely different thing that with current 2-3 socket items and sadly the tank PG revolves a lot around kiting and letting your healer offtank some mobs, which isn't my idea of being a good tank.

Another feature I'd like is to be able to get back into the PG at a higher wave, starting at wave0 everytime just to wipe after 30+ mins at a similar point again is frustrating, It wouldn't have to be at every wave but like every 10 waves you get a new "spawnpoint", that'd be great

EDIT: Imo PGs aren't really the way to learn your role, but they can learn you SOME key elements - and I'd say for most new players the threshold to actually try and do it is quite high (with the increased difficulty due to less sockets on gear etc.)

I never let my healer off tank anything, and I even heal her if he's accidently taking damage (glyphed Death Coil, Gift of the Naruu).

Deffo agree about the checkpoints, At least for the same instance. If we leave the instance its reseted and we'll have to go from start.

[Deleted]

I found Gold somewhat challenging on my elemental shaman simply because I didn't do enough dps. Sometimes I would finish the wave with 6 seconds left, sometimes the same fight I couldn't make on time because I got no mastery procs.

[Eyechewer]

I did gold dps PG on my arms warrior (fully pvp gear, didn't have a single piece of pve gear)

Honestly was one of the harder things i've experienced in the game. Took me a lot of tries. If your looking for a challenge from the DPS PG (which people say is easy) try doing it in pvp gear

[eschatological]

I don't understand - I think the 463 scaling is a pretty important concept to PGs. At end-of-xpac gear levels, you can essentially stack something to make your job infinitely easier (whether it's DPS, heal, or tank), so encounters get more mechanically difficult to make up for the ease at which you play your class. PGs are the opposite, they are mechanically easy (they just require a wide breath of your abilities, not just your 1-6) but are a strain on your actual role - hence the "proving."

Any HC raider whose been doing heroics for more than an expansion knows that there's nothing more difficult (and very little more satisfying) than killing hard heroic bosses in early expansion blues. What do you think world first raiders relish? Killing bosses in low ilevels. When I eventually kill H-Garrosh, my ilvl will probably be 10 or so higher than these WF raiders, and people after me will have even higher gear. In a gear progression game, gear nerfs the difficulty of things, and gear equalization (like in CMs and PGs) tests skill better than scaling mobs up to your ilevel. Our disc priest, who is, granted, the best priest I've ever played with, constantly complains about how boring healing gets as he gets more gear, because he's not worried about spamming big nukes.

As another anecdote, I was pushed into heroic raiding by early Cataclysm heroics. Our resto shaman in our casual guild was trying to heal that Tol'vir heroic and failing miserably, and insisting it couldn't be done. I had leveled my spriest first, so as a challenge, I thought I'd level my shaman to see if healing was really as difficult as he said. When I got to 90, and was healing those unnerfed heroics, I was really working, and struggling, to conserve mana, weave healing waves, lower my overhealing, increase my efficiency, until I was the healer everyone wanted to queue with. This pushed me into looking for like-minded people in a guild, that got me into heroic raiding because my old guild couldn't kill Magmaw, and I joined a guild which went 12/13H (we said a big fuck you to H-Ascendant Council 10 man), and then rocked every tier since. I've since switched to hunter, but the attitude was bred in those early heroics, where the gear simply required you to be more skillful because you couldn't make it up with gear/

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Do you hate balance druids and mistweavers? Cause its nearly impossible for both to do gold due to how massively they are linked to their ilevel.

I was told, in order to pass the healing test on gold on my monk, I would need to gem all spirit and reforge into all spirit and spam a single skill, and play in a way that is not accurate in the way the class plays. That does not test competence.
That shows zero about skill level.

And this is what I don't get, the "accuracy" of how the spec plays. That was exactly HOW that spec played in the first weeks of MSV. That's what PGs are supposed to simulate, the skill needed to down fights when you can't just reach a certain haste threshold and be done with it.