Alright, screw it lets talk about it. Warrior "OPness" and PvP Slamless priority list

[ZaelRah]

Its really quite rare that I post my own thread, so don't expect me to get as insanely detailed as a lot of you warriors who post, but I haven't really seen us talk about either of the topics I'm going to bring up. I only have one rule I wish everyone to follow in this thread (especially if it becomes a big conversation) no being an arrogant douchebag and telling people their ideas are wrong(without proof/numbers). Also I have 2 topics to bring up, Mods I hope you're okay with having 2 in one.(I didn't want to cause a bloat by having 2 entirely different threads.)
[Topic 1]
Okay, so I'm sure even in the PvE community you're all completely aware of what most other classes are saying about the current state of our PvPness. I decided to open up this topic because I want to get your honest opinions on how our class is in pvp atm. I'll personally say a few of our QoL(Quality of Life) changes can easily be more considered as buffs especially by our friends the casters (Spell reflect being able to use without a GCD with equipping the shield makes it way harder to juke). There is a large outcry of our increase in damage as well! (Woah bet you haven't heard that one!) I want to get both sides opinions from our PvE brothers and our PvP brothers(Or sisters, and yes we both play the same class so no hating on if you play one side specifically.) What would you guys do/say if because of such a large outcry that blizzard literally had to bring down our damage to lower numbers to accommodate their players as a whole.(My opinion time that no one cares about! woohoo!) I personally believe that with how arms is its hardly pulling ahead on the aoe fights for PvE so if we get the nerfhammer even a little bit arms will be out, again! In PvP our numbers will go down significantly, people will go back to their dks, rets, and rogues, we'll have the whole "why be a warrior when you can just be a dk?" isn't this just what EVERYONE would like to see? wrong. Every season there is at LEAST one class that has the whole community in anger, but why is it when its warriors we see a thread from a very angry individual that has over 17 pages of arguments!? I believe its because warriors have always been this class that's easily pressured into a corner to reduce our damage output, now I don't entirely like this idea, but its the only real reason I can think of such an outcry. Is it a L2P issue? Or have we really been put up so much that we have become THAT impossible to pressure our damage out? (push warrior to second wind, warrior Loses to get to 35% and possibly bandage?) I'm looking for your opinions and what you all truly think about how we are. (I think we're a little strong right now but I don't want to call it til most players are rocking near full grievous.)
(TL;DR? What is your opinion on how we stand in PvE and/or PvP and what will our numbers/representation be if/when we receive the nerfhammer?) Conclude topic 1.

[Topic 2] (I think this one is entirely to do with PvP so disregard if you wish)
Pvping without using Slam!? Yes its true, there is a playstyle that some consider to do more damage and be more rage efficient that multi glad rank 1 Veev found (his stream http://www.twitch.tv/veev). This new style was brought to my attention only yesterday by a warrior from MoonGuard(Yuck) and I'm embarrassed to say I never stumbled upon it for myself however who gives a shit who I am and if I found it or not? Anyways this is basically how it goes, Csmash to Mortal strike than overpower to oblivion rinse and repeat until you're at 85+rage (105 if unending rage) than you're allowed to throw in heroic strikes as a rage dump. Why? Well I'll share what our rank 1 Veev has to say on slam, "Y U NO SLAM?! Slam does ~32994 damage on average for 25 rage (1320 damage per rage). Overpower does ~14102 damage for 10 rage (1410 damage per rage). Overpower is not only more rage efficient, but also reduces the remaining cooldown of Mortal Strike (which in turn grants more rage and a more frequent chance at proccing the Enrage buff). And Overpower cannot be blocked, dodged, or parried. The only advantage to using Slam is for quick, inefficient burst." Sounds good right? Makes you want to try it for yourself? Well do it, its impressive honestly but I disagree with his numbers, I ran my own test (2bgs with Overpower style then 2bgs with Slam style) I calculated that overpower is pushing 1,323.825 damage per rage on average per hit while Slam is doing 1,469.07 damage per rage on average per hit that's only a difference of 145.245 damage per rage on blah blah blah.. but how impressive is that? The player outcry of our damage majorly comes from our ability to "slam spam" But I can do basically the same damage(and in more of a rage efficient way) without even having slam on my bar! Now I want your opinions on this new playstyle(test it out, it flows and is actually quite a lot of fun!) because like Veev said Overpower cannot be blocked, dodged, or parried and has a 60% increased crit chance! Give your input and let me know what you really think of it! Maybe we can get out of this whole argument of "warriors just spam slam to win". So I went and watched Veev play more and he does use slam, however he doesn't slam spam for normal damage like most warriors do(Which you shouldn't really if you want to have rage.) He uses it for when he wants to get in 2 or 3 short heavy hits while he has a Csmash up but not every csmash window so if you test this playstyle remember you can bring in those 2 or 3 slams during Csmash debuff to get heavy hits in while your main target is low!)
(TL;DR? Try not using slam for basic damage only when target is getting low and you have Csmash on your target otherwise just use Overpower and also heroic strike at 85+rage. No more Slam spam!) Conclude Topic 2 and all of my opinions!

[Archimtiros]

Don't PvP, don't care.
To expand: PvP has always been incredibly imbalanced, and it always will be until the core tenants of the games "balancing philosophy" is changed.
I fully believe that PvP and PVE damages should be tuned seperatly, and think it would be infinitely easier to simply have dedicated specs for each, but that is a different argument altogether.

[ZaelRah]

In part I agree, but I also disagree right now, yes we have our "op" classes warriors being one of them, however I think the game has never been as balanced(The amount of CC in the game is ridiculous) but most classes have something just as equal or works in a different sort of way some are better than others(Scatter-trap to Blood Fear) but everyone has their own.
How would you create a new spec specifically for pvp? Have it activated the second you walk into instanced PvP? What about world pvp when you could sit in your PvE spec and wreak havoc with it because of the damage difference, how could something like work as a better balance than the current setup? Personally I just think damage needs to be equalized does the PvE community really need to see such big numbers? 2m+ executes? Is that really what needs to be seen to feel accomplished?

[Master Guns]

Lol, warriors are OP right now? Since when? I quit when Timeless Isle came out, since when are warriors OP in any regard? They absolutely sucked a month ago

[ZaelRah]

Lol, warriors are OP right now? Since when? I quit when Timeless Isle came out, since when are warriors OP in any regard? They absolutely sucked a month ago

when 5.4 we got a whole page of buffs. Supped up our slam, easily can hit damn near 140k in full burst if done in Csmash window.

[Hellravager]

Agreed that they should tune pvp and pve damage separately would solve alot of issues and its not even that hard to do

[Xeley]

As mentioned. Expand on the tuning of CS (50% on players) and just tune all abilities that way. I mean, it's not so damn hard.

[Archimtiros]

In part I agree, but I also disagree right now, yes we have our "op" classes warriors being one of them, however I think the game has never been as balanced(The amount of CC in the game is ridiculous) but most classes have something just as equal or works in a different sort of way some are better than others(Scatter-trap to Blood Fear) but everyone has their own.
How would you create a new spec specifically for pvp? Have it activated the second you walk into instanced PvP? What about world pvp when you could sit in your PvE spec and wreak havoc with it because of the damage difference, how could something like work as a better balance than the current setup? Personally I just think damage needs to be equalized does the PvE community really need to see such big numbers? 2m+ executes? Is that really what needs to be seen to feel accomplished?

They have already spoken of doing item squish, but the reason for is computing power. We have huge damage numbers because health pools are gigantic, post squish, we would have smaller numbers and smaller health pools. The number is arbitrary, it's the relationship that matters.

[dalch]

2013 and people still care about peeveepee?

[Master Guns]

How is fury atm in PvE?

[sjsctt]

How is fury atm in PvE?

Stronk. Very Stronk.

[Master Guns]

Dafuq does stronk mean?

[Deleted]

Dafuq does stronk mean?

Strong. Fury is in a pretty good state atm, strong single target, good survivability with the shield wall changes, a pretty complete package.

[Itisamuh]

We're nothing like OP.

Personally, I've lost faith in the whole PvP side of things. Which is a shame, because I've had great fun in the past. The problem now, especially for warriors, is that Gregcrawler and his band of halfwits have dropped their pants, and let anyone who wants a particular offensive or defensive ability/school to have it at almost no cost.

They're the reason that Hunters have stealth (especially glyphed) the reason Mages have healing on tap (with Invocation (Glyphed) and Symbiosis), the reason that Priests have a Vanish (in Spectral Guise). They're also the reason that casters aren't casting on the spot.. they have Lighting Bolt, Scorch, Incinerate (talented), All hunter skills bar two (if you count Hunters as a caster (and considering Melee:vs:Ranged, they are). And even skills that ordinarily need to be casted are given up for a proc. Stuff like Starsurge and Pyroblast hit HARD.. as they should if you cast them, but WHY THE HELL do they pro so much? Why have Blizzard turned around and said to a Fire Mage: here, have your hardest hitting ability for free, with no cast time, no internal CD, and contributive to the next Hot Streak/Heating Up! Why not make Fireball instant or take 60% off a pyroblast cast?

Instead, we have firemages in PvP who FREQUENTLY get 3 Pyroblast!s in 5-6 seconds. And can even benefit from them twice with Alter Time. They don't stand still. Ever. That's why Warriors are fcuked... because the game has moved on to a point where having a charge on a 12 second CD just doesn't cut it. Having to reflect one measly spell every 25 seconds is so much harder than it used to be, yet the CD is 250% of what it once was. Our movement abilities (HL, Bannervene) are SO CRAP and hard to activate compared to Displacer, Blink or FSK)

So things have evolved.. people can move more, and have more tricks... and this would all be well and good if Warriors had kept up, but they're SOOOO dependant on other classes. And that's how it should be, but other classes just don't have the same 'problem'. Rogues have a heal (two/three with Leeching poison+Shiv), as well as top damage, great survivability, and many, many escapes; DKs can and have been soloing the world (and UHDK and FDK ,as of 5.4 PTR, are just sitting in Blood Presence) Druids actually stack heals (talents+abilities) that BEAT Lay on Hands in throughput (BF considered)

Classes that don't need as much help are always going to be better. Spirit Bond for Hunters is half as good as Second Wind but is active from 100% down to 1%... and with the new Resil Changes, burst just doesn't take off as much %HP as before... meaning that no only are Hunters healed to keep them out of execute range, but they're less likely be affected by constant pressure. Healing hybrids heal too much, too.

Are you seriously suggesting that rogues are better than warriors right now?

[Angelicat]

Agreed that they should tune pvp and pve damage separately would solve alot of issues and its not even that hard to do

As mentioned. Expand on the tuning of CS (50% on players) and just tune all abilities that way. I mean, it's not so damn hard.

Pretty much. Such a simple solution that Blizzard won't do just because they are stubborn about not wanting to do that for every ability. Like anyone is going to make a huge fuss if abilities hit differently in PvP than PvE. It's the same thing with making sure every class feels different at the expense of the utility or damage of the class. Blizzard just blows my mind sometimes with their decisions.

[Anium]

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TIRED....of these op warrior threads >.< you sound like a broken record man
Not going to give my two cents as I'd just be repeating myself to people with deaf ears.

[ZaelRah]

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TIRED....of these op warrior threads >.< you sound like a broken record man
Not going to give my two cents as I'd just be repeating myself to people with deaf ears.

You obviously didn't read it all the way through, maybe you should before you open your trap. I was saying more that if we do get nerfed there won't be a reason to be arms, I'm trying to say that we're not OP and this is how we have to be to be viable.

[Anium]

You obviously didn't read it all the way through, maybe you should before you open your trap. I was saying more that if we do get nerfed there won't be a reason to be arms, I'm trying to say that we're not OP and this is how we have to be to be viable.

But look at the responses....what did you expect?

[Emophia]

We're nothing like OP.

Personally, I've lost faith in the whole PvP side of things. Which is a shame, because I've had great fun in the past. The problem now, especially for warriors, is that Gregcrawler and his band of halfwits have dropped their pants, and let anyone who wants a particular offensive or defensive ability/school to have it at almost no cost.

They're the reason that Hunters have stealth (especially glyphed) the reason Mages have healing on tap (with Invocation (Glyphed) and Symbiosis), the reason that Priests have a Vanish (in Spectral Guise). They're also the reason that casters aren't casting on the spot.. they have Lighting Bolt, Scorch, Incinerate (talented), All hunter skills bar two (if you count Hunters as a caster (and considering Melee:vs:Ranged, they are). And even skills that ordinarily need to be casted are given up for a proc. Stuff like Starsurge and Pyroblast hit HARD.. as they should if you cast them, but WHY THE HELL do they pro so much? Why have Blizzard turned around and said to a Fire Mage: here, have your hardest hitting ability for free, with no cast time, no internal CD, and contributive to the next Hot Streak/Heating Up! Why not make Fireball instant or take 60% off a pyroblast cast?

Instead, we have firemages in PvP who FREQUENTLY get 3 Pyroblast!s in 5-6 seconds. And can even benefit from them twice with Alter Time. They don't stand still. Ever. That's why Warriors are fcuked... because the game has moved on to a point where having a charge on a 12 second CD just doesn't cut it. Having to reflect one measly spell every 25 seconds is so much harder than it used to be, yet the CD is 250% of what it once was. Our movement abilities (HL, Bannervene) are SO CRAP and hard to activate compared to Displacer, Blink or FSK)

So things have evolved.. people can move more, and have more tricks... and this would all be well and good if Warriors had kept up, but they're SOOOO dependant on other classes. And that's how it should be, but other classes just don't have the same 'problem'. Rogues have a heal (two/three with Leeching poison+Shiv), as well as top damage, great survivability, and many, many escapes; DKs can and have been soloing the world (and UHDK and FDK ,as of 5.4 PTR, are just sitting in Blood Presence) Druids actually stack heals (talents+abilities) that BEAT Lay on Hands in throughput (BF considered)

Classes that don't need as much help are always going to be better. Spirit Bond for Hunters is half as good as Second Wind but is active from 100% down to 1%... and with the new Resil Changes, burst just doesn't take off as much %HP as before... meaning that no only are Hunters healed to keep them out of execute range, but they're less likely be affected by constant pressure. Healing hybrids heal too much, too.

lol did you just mention leeching poison in PVP?

LMAO.

[Kanariya]

We're nothing like OP.

Personally, I've lost faith in the whole PvP side of things. Which is a shame, because I've had great fun in the past. The problem now, especially for warriors, is that Gregcrawler and his band of halfwits have dropped their pants, and let anyone who wants a particular offensive or defensive ability/school to have it at almost no cost.

They're the reason that Hunters have stealth (especially glyphed) the reason Mages have healing on tap (with Invocation (Glyphed) and Symbiosis), the reason that Priests have a Vanish (in Spectral Guise). They're also the reason that casters aren't casting on the spot.. they have Lighting Bolt, Scorch, Incinerate (talented), All hunter skills bar two (if you count Hunters as a caster (and considering Melee:vs:Ranged, they are). And even skills that ordinarily need to be casted are given up for a proc. Stuff like Starsurge and Pyroblast hit HARD.. as they should if you cast them, but WHY THE HELL do they pro so much? Why have Blizzard turned around and said to a Fire Mage: here, have your hardest hitting ability for free, with no cast time, no internal CD, and contributive to the next Hot Streak/Heating Up! Why not make Fireball instant or take 60% off a pyroblast cast?

Instead, we have firemages in PvP who FREQUENTLY get 3 Pyroblast!s in 5-6 seconds. And can even benefit from them twice with Alter Time. They don't stand still. Ever. That's why Warriors are fcuked... because the game has moved on to a point where having a charge on a 12 second CD just doesn't cut it. Having to reflect one measly spell every 25 seconds is so much harder than it used to be, yet the CD is 250% of what it once was. Our movement abilities (HL, Bannervene) are SO CRAP and hard to activate compared to Displacer, Blink or FSK)

So things have evolved.. people can move more, and have more tricks... and this would all be well and good if Warriors had kept up, but they're SOOOO dependant on other classes. And that's how it should be, but other classes just don't have the same 'problem'. Rogues have a heal (two/three with Leeching poison+Shiv), as well as top damage, great survivability, and many, many escapes; DKs can and have been soloing the world (and UHDK and FDK ,as of 5.4 PTR, are just sitting in Blood Presence) Druids actually stack heals (talents+abilities) that BEAT Lay on Hands in throughput (BF considered)

Classes that don't need as much help are always going to be better. Spirit Bond for Hunters is half as good as Second Wind but is active from 100% down to 1%... and with the new Resil Changes, burst just doesn't take off as much %HP as before... meaning that no only are Hunters healed to keep them out of execute range, but they're less likely be affected by constant pressure. Healing hybrids heal too much, too.

Wall of tears from a bad warrior. Arms is the most OP melee spec there is out there right now. It'll change in a few hotfixes, I'm sure, but you're denying the truth and it's quite embarrassing on your behalf.

Also, Rogues have the weakest burst and sustained damage of all melee classes right now. Lol @ you suggesting Leeching Poison (which is taken in neither PvE nor PvP) as a viable self-heal.