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  1. #61
    The current talent system is untenable. Once every 15 levels necessitates that they redo the tree every expansion as they are expected to deliver new talents at max level.

    The easiest way they could add new talents for new expansion is keep the first 90 level talents, but add one talent every 1-2 levels for the new levels in the next expansion. This leads to talent bloat in the next next expansion unless they remove old talents again.

    The old talent tree that lasted us 4 expansions was good. It is another example of don't fix it if it's not broken.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by liam78 View Post
    The current talent system is untenable. Once every 15 levels necessitates that they redo the tree every expansion as they are expected to deliver new talents at max level.

    The easiest way they could add new talents for new expansion is keep the first 90 level talents, but add one talent every 1-2 levels for the new levels in the next expansion. This leads to talent bloat in the next next expansion unless they remove old talents again.

    The old talent tree that lasted us 4 expansions was good. It is another example of don't fix it if it's not broken.
    ffffffffffffffffffff

    Old system was bad... HEY GUIZE IS 5% HIGHER DAMAGE BETTER THAN 2% CHANCE TO RESIST ON A DPS CLASS. HURR DURR.

    It was stupid, and silly. In fact, that's why nearly EVERY SINGLE NEW AAA MMO no longer has talent trees. They are brainless and stupid. Don't be naive.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Willfox View Post
    It might not just be your opinion, but it is still just an opinion not a fact.
    And it may be just fact, but its also the reality of how the devs viewed the game.

    99% of the time, the current talent system is more like you are playing with all the talents, but 66% of them are useless on each fight. In effect you only really want 1 of each talent for each tier per a fight, so where is the choice? If you aren't in a situation where you really want 2-3 talents from each tier on any given fight, than you aren't making a real choice.
    The problem here, I think, is that people still regard talents as their primary source of class structure and progression. That's just not true any more, with all the primary, core spells now given by default in your spell book. Talents in MoP are about utility. The choice comes from deciding which talent best serves you during the fight.

    The current system lacks fun whilst leveling(new shiney talent each level) and it forces you into a role.
    No kidding it forces you into a role, that's the point. You pick the talent that serves your role the best. And your role can easily change from fight to fight. Does it lack the "WOW I FINALLY GOT TO LEVEL XX AND GOT THIS AWESOME SPELL" feel of the old system? I guess? After leveling enough characters, the old system ceased to have that effect itself.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Can people stop with this nonsense?

    The old talent trees were dumb. They were brainless.
    They are less brainless now? There is a single right and wrong spec on every single fight. Sure, you switch them around on a fight basis, but there isn't anything "different" like they were wanting. There will ALWAYS be a cookie cutter spec until we get the something like the new paragon system in Diablo.

    Porting the new paragon system over to WoW would be quite nice. For those unaware of the new system, you get points in which you can spend only a specific amount in to each "tree". Trees break down in to stats(+int/agi/etc), offensive(+hit/crit/mastery/haste/etc) defensive(dodge/parry/etc) and utility(mf/gf/move speed) If they were to port over that model of talents to WoW, I think you'd actually see some differences. This is only for a "passive" talent thing though. I'm not sure how you'd work in activatible talents and such, but it is a good start.

    Allowing specs to take haste or some other secondary stat as a bonus would make gearing very different for players as there is only 1 path in gearing for BiS right now for almost all classes/specs. As a spriest, if I could reach my breakpoints with gear or talents it would make things much more interesting for the gearing phase of the game, which is a lot nicer than we currently have for sure.

    I just hope they do something with talents as they are currently boring as hell to me. I haven't touched 1/2 my talents in forever as there is no reason to. The others are all set and hit based upon fight with no reason to ever try something different as they are the best options already.
    Narye/Sofex - Zul'jin US PvE - 0/17M T17- 9 hr/wk - Exiled Legion

  5. #65
    Gee never gets old hearing the same tired rhetoric from talent tree haters.

    Funny how these people never complained about talent trees until blizzard told them too. In fact you know what people were complaining about the most.

    They wanted a tri-spec option. LOLOL, because there was obviously so few options in the old trees right?

    Here's the reason talents were dumbed down. Because it was easier for the developers to make a handful of talents for all the classes, then to try and balance these full trees that would by now have an insane amount of options to explore and have fun with.

    Have fun with your fischer price talents, parroting the same old ignorant excuses.
    Last edited by Lomak; 2013-10-05 at 09:19 PM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    No I disagree from personal experience. And those websites aren't 100% right 100% of the time, so how aboot you get over it?
    So you mean when I would look to see what the top <insert class here> raiders were specing at the time, you're telling me that it wasn't 100% accurate? Your personal experience must be random picking of talents that sounded cool and that's about it. When the top 10 guilds raiders of one particular class had picked 95%+ of the same talents then that was pretty much the only viable option to go with.

    Bottom line is that if you raided with any seriousness back then you chose the exact same spec, minus the couple optional points that could be spent on whatever else, as the top players of your class. There is a reason why it was called cookie cutter since the vast majority of serious raiders had the same talents picked.

    The current talent system is easy, simple and to the point. A decent improvement to the old one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lomak View Post
    Gee never gets old hearing the same tired rhetoric from talent tree haters.
    It does get tired of hearing the same tired rhetoric from current talent tree haters. Have fun coming up with new and well thought out ignorant reasons why they suck!

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Marema View Post
    So you mean when I would look to see what the top <insert class here> raiders were specing at the time, you're telling me that it wasn't 100% accurate? Your personal experience must be random picking of talents that sounded cool and that's about it. When the top 10 guilds raiders of one particular class had picked 95%+ of the same talents then that was pretty much the only viable option to go with.

    Bottom line is that if you raided with any seriousness back then you chose the exact same spec, minus the couple optional points that could be spent on whatever else, as the top players of your class. There is a reason why it was called cookie cutter since the vast majority of serious raiders had the same talents picked.
    It is exactly that right now. The system hasn't changed. You still pick the best talents. There is a right and a wrong answer still for your talent spec. The only difference is that you can respec anywhere you want now so people think you have so many more choices. If they just added that option with the old talent system, it would be exactly the same as the current one. The good thing about this system is you can change them anywhere, nothing the system as a whole.
    Narye/Sofex - Zul'jin US PvE - 0/17M T17- 9 hr/wk - Exiled Legion

  8. #68
    Things have changed quite a bit. For instance, each talent is competing with, at most, 2 others.
    This simply wouldn't have been possible with the old system.

    Before, you only had options, now you have actual choices. Deciding between +5% haste and -5% damage taken is not a choice. All the old system really allowed you to do was choosing to be stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by liam78 View Post
    The current talent system is untenable. Once every 15 levels necessitates that they redo the tree every expansion as they are expected to deliver new talents at max level.

    The easiest way they could add new talents for new expansion is keep the first 90 level talents, but add one talent every 1-2 levels for the new levels in the next expansion. This leads to talent bloat in the next next expansion unless they remove old talents again.

    The old talent tree that lasted us 4 expansions was good. It is another example of don't fix it if it's not broken.
    Or, you know, they could just give us one new row for max level and be done with it. They obviously can set the minimum level of a row to whatever they deem fit, as evidenced by DKs.
    Last edited by huth; 2013-10-05 at 10:03 PM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Can people stop with this nonsense?

    The old talent trees were dumb. They were brainless. 5% more damage done? Well who the hell isn't going to take that? Face it, all we had were cookie-cutter specs that you had to follow to be someone that anyone would take with in a PuG or raid. You had to. Some talent trees had one or two optional talents but they weren't optional abilities, they simply provided something more, such as more of a resource or more of a DoT or more of a critical strike chance that should have been baked in.

    What is more pointless than that? What take less thought than cookie-cutter talent builds that give you straight bonuses that you'd be an idiot not to take?

    Today's talent tree? Well I spec into Death's Advance for Immerseus and Protectors as it makes both fights pretty easy for me in terms of mobility. I spec out of it into Asphyxiate for Galakras. I also change out Plague Leech into Unholy Blight for Galakras as it makes keeping diseases up on all of the waves very very easy. Back to Death's Advance for Iron Juggernaut...

    ...see where I am going with this? See how the new talent trees are superior? Instead of pointless "% damage increased" talents that you have to take they provide a lot of situational abilities that are swapped out on the fly to make your character more useful in situations they encounter. I am of greater value to my raid because I can switch out abilities that help me move faster or allow me to take on a role (like stunning Bonecrushers on Galakras with Asphyxiate) that I wouldn't otherwise have been able to, at least not easily.

    OT: I suspect they'll reorder the levels at which we take talents since that'd have no impact on already level 90's.
    your actually retarded

    [infracted]
    Last edited by Tziva; 2013-10-05 at 11:33 PM.

  10. #70
    Mechagnome Extrakt's Avatar
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    I wish it was back like vanilla or TBC.
    Even though gaining 1% crit isn't really noticeable. You ( Or atleast I did ) felt a little bit more powerfull than before.
    Slowly gaining a bit more, made me feel like a powerfull character at the end of the journey to level 60.
    Even training new spell levels did, you could really see the difference there.

    Nowadays I don't care, I bulldoze through everything anyway.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    ...see where I am going with this?
    Not really, because as you described you changed your talents based on the fight. By the very nature that you changed your talents on a fight basis means that there's cookie cutter specs, the only difference is now that changes on a per-fight basis rather than a bland fits-all one. There is very little choice in these trees, I'll use Ret for an example.

    T1 - You'll use Speed of Light if there's no reason to move regularly, else you'll use Long Arm of the Law if you're running between 2 or more targets regularly. If you've simply just got to move frequently, little and often, and with no immediate need, you'll take Pursuit of Justice.

    T2 - You'll take Fist of Justice if you can stun adds, like on Sha of Pride (Which supposedly prevents stuff spawning too). You'll rarely ever use Repentance and you'll definitely never use Evil is a Point of View. Fears in PvE are bad without stationary glyphs.

    T3 - SS if you're just reducing overall damage done to you, scales nice enough with AP so using it during all procs if you know there's regular damage can ease pressure on a healer or you'll take Selfless Healer and clutch heal tanks or derpy players getting hit by shit. You will NEVER take EF as Ret. Why take a talent which reduces your DPS by using HP for TVs or Inq rather than a Talent which prevents the damage in the first place?

    T4 - You'll take either Unbreakable Spirit for self-survival, 30s DP base CD, 2.5m Shield and 5m LoH for clutch saves if needed, or you'll take Clemency for Double Sacs if you're soaking damage off the tank frequently. Generally speaking, you'll never need to use Clemency in a 25m because you'll have enough CDs to save Tanks as it is. You will very rarely find a use for Purity, and even then why bother with Purity when you can double Sac and heal through it?

    T5 - You'll still always take Sanctified Wrath for Single Target and you'll only take DP if you're on add duty in a cleave fight, like Galarakas. HA has never really been competitive compared to the two unless you need to burst shit down on a fight like Spine.

    T6 - You'll never take LH or HP generally, as ES is much stronger, scales with AP far more effectively and doesn't fuck with your rotation as much. You'll probably use HP on add-heavy fights like Galarakas. LH's CD is too long for it's damage and is only going to be worth taking if you can fully make use of the heal, which is a rarity.

    So you have choice on T1, T3 and T4. None of which will change the way you play, only what you can potentially do to save people. Funny that, sounds exactly like Ret was in Cata where I could spec into Selfless Healer or Acts of Sacrifice to increase WoG healing or reduce the CD on Hands by 20% for more frequent Sacs. Only difference between now and then is that I have to choose between Pursuit of Justice, improved a little, and Long Arm of the Law as well as choosing between a nerfed Sacred Shield and Selfless Healer. Yeah, I'm really not seeing this whole "Much more choice" view.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  12. #72
    The Patient sixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    How about you stop with your convenient, populous, close-minded opinion. Not every talent in the old system was +/-% this or that. There was plenty of room for further specialization and niche-specs, and it was fun to study and figure out what would work best for you, specifically.

    It's all about opinion, experience, and perspective. I happen to think that changing one SPELL out for another depending on the fight is "dumb" and "brainless."
    I disagree with you. Fun to figure out with the old system what was best? All I recall was visiting MMO-Champ class forums or Elitist Jerks and grab the cookie cutter spec of the moment. It wasn't fun at all, it was just like oh look the flavor of the month!

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by sixx View Post
    I disagree with you. Fun to figure out with the old system what was best? All I recall was visiting MMO-Champ class forums or Elitist Jerks and grab the cookie cutter spec of the moment. It wasn't fun at all, it was just like oh look the flavor of the month!
    Certainly you can use the internet to trivialize any sort of puzzle in any game. This doesn't make puzzles bad, it makes boring people bored; not exactly a negative in my opinion.

  14. #74
    The Patient sixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    Certainly you can use the internet to trivialize any sort of puzzle in any game. This doesn't make puzzles bad, it makes boring people bored; not exactly a negative in my opinion.
    That's one way put it I can agree with more than describing the old system "fun".

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Schaden View Post
    And it may be just fact, but its also the reality of how the devs viewed the game.



    The problem here, I think, is that people still regard talents as their primary source of class structure and progression. That's just not true any more, with all the primary, core spells now given by default in your spell book. Talents in MoP are about utility. The choice comes from deciding which talent best serves you during the fight.



    No kidding it forces you into a role, that's the point. You pick the talent that serves your role the best. And your role can easily change from fight to fight. Does it lack the "WOW I FINALLY GOT TO LEVEL XX AND GOT THIS AWESOME SPELL" feel of the old system? I guess? After leveling enough characters, the old system ceased to have that effect itself.
    Yeah... As a Warrior choosing betwin 3 diferent ways of self healing is really going to boost me in a certain boss fight... As a Shaman choosing betwin 3 diferent defensive habilities is realy going to boost my PvP...

    Being able to hot swap talents, gives you the sense of having the hability to choose, the problem is that Blizzard ensured that there is no option... I still remember when i could combine all self defense habilities, or being able to just go wild, that is custumization.

    There is no custumization when they implemented thematic tiers...

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuor View Post
    Yeah... As a Warrior choosing betwin 3 diferent ways of self healing is really going to boost me in a certain boss fight... As a Shaman choosing betwin 3 diferent defensive habilities is realy going to boost my PvP...

    Being able to hot swap talents, gives you the sense of having the hability to choose, the problem is that Blizzard ensured that there is no option... I still remember when i could combine all self defense habilities, or being able to just go wild, that is custumization.

    There is no custumization when they implemented thematic tiers...
    Customization only existed for the most casual of players. For anyone doing even a semblance of "competitive" end game content, whether it be rated play or progression raiding, or hell even PuG raiding, you were expected to have the theoretical best talents.

    Do we still have theoretical bests? Sure we do. But we have more options and more variables in our talents (T14 Hunters used Glaives except in AoE cases where Barrage took over,) but in most cases the gap between talents is incredibly minute to where people are arguing over a .5% difference.

    The system needs some work but it's still better than the old system. There was no customization for players who's end game content wasn't max level questing. All those fun hybrid builds people like to look back on also tend to forget that anytime a hybrid build popped up as a competitive option or got popular at all, Blizzard totally axed it within a patch cycle.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Amorise View Post
    The system needs some work but it's still better than the old system. There was no customization for players who's end game content wasn't max level questing. All those fun hybrid builds people like to look back on also tend to forget that anytime a hybrid build popped up as a competitive option or got popular at all, Blizzard totally axed it within a patch cycle.
    We don't forget it. We look at the axing of hybrid builds as a precursor to just removing choice entirely.

    Hybrids were axed individually,

    then they were squashed by forcing people to the end of the tree,

    later, since there was no motivation to look for unique builds the "cookie cutter build" turned from being an insult used when discussing players who didn't understand their class into the way the game needed to be played.

    Which brings us to where we are now. Your talent selection is removed and in its place is a spec selection and a special page worth of free glyphs that are inexplicably referred to as talents.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    We don't forget it. We look at the axing of hybrid builds as a precursor to just removing choice entirely.

    Hybrids were axed individually,

    then they were squashed by forcing people to the end of the tree,

    later, since there was no motivation to look for unique builds the "cookie cutter build" turned from being an insult used when discussing players who didn't understand their class into the way the game needed to be played.

    Which brings us to where we are now. Your talent selection is removed and in its place is a spec selection and a special page worth of free glyphs that are inexplicably referred to as talents.
    There were cookie cutters even for those hybrid builds. Don't act as if they only came up after WotLK.

  19. #79
    Bloodsail Admiral Manabomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Can people stop with this nonsense?

    The old talent trees were dumb. They were brainless. 5% more damage done? Well who the hell isn't going to take that? Face it, all we had were cookie-cutter specs that you had to follow to be someone that anyone would take with in a PuG or raid. You had to. Some talent trees had one or two optional talents but they weren't optional abilities, they simply provided something more, such as more of a resource or more of a DoT or more of a critical strike chance that should have been baked in.

    What is more pointless than that? What take less thought than cookie-cutter talent builds that give you straight bonuses that you'd be an idiot not to take?

    Today's talent tree? Well I spec into Death's Advance for Immerseus and Protectors as it makes both fights pretty easy for me in terms of mobility. I spec out of it into Asphyxiate for Galakras. I also change out Plague Leech into Unholy Blight for Galakras as it makes keeping diseases up on all of the waves very very easy. Back to Death's Advance for Iron Juggernaut...

    ...see where I am going with this? See how the new talent trees are superior? Instead of pointless "% damage increased" talents that you have to take they provide a lot of situational abilities that are swapped out on the fly to make your character more useful in situations they encounter. I am of greater value to my raid because I can switch out abilities that help me move faster or allow me to take on a role (like stunning Bonecrushers on Galakras with Asphyxiate) that I wouldn't otherwise have been able to, at least not easily.

    OT: I suspect they'll reorder the levels at which we take talents since that'd have no impact on already level 90's.
    What's the difference between cookie cutter specs with optional talents and the things we have now? Perhaps I'm missing something, but I change 1 talent per fight across 3 different characters (brm/ww monk, bm hunter, mage) and that's even if I need the change a talent from the standard cookie cutter talent choices. Maybe I play the 3 classes that only swap 1 talent, but I still see no difference between the olden days of yor where I swapped talents at the same frequency to stay viable.

    The new talent system is only better because you can swap talents on the go. If they would have done that with the original trees then they would be exactly the same thing, only on one of them there's an artificial notion of choice. Where you think you're making a decision yet you aren't because you're going to take what's best for the content you're doing or you're going to suck. There's no choice, it's an instruction guide.

    Also to be fair, I'd ake some %damage increased talents over some of the useless shit talents they have given us, like 2/3 of the level 90 mage talents or the usefulness of ring of ice in pve. Or Ox charge in any form of content.

    Is the new talent system better? Only because you can switch talents on the fly, as I've said. Any other argument to the otherwise is a trip down ignorance lane with a side of false premises.
    Reduce- Iconic class abilities, complexity and meaningful rotations, usefulness of any one class in a raid group
    Reuse- A continent from 3 expansions ago, a story arch from 3 games ago, characters that would otherwise be dead
    Recycle- A beaten to death plot-line, the nostalgia goggles for TBC, bossfight mechanics that make patchwerk seem complex
    The three R's of Warlords of Draenor and that doesn't even mention flying, #savekarabor, blizzard store, tier to tier ilvl skips.

  20. #80
    In addition, the talents are not game-changing anymore. They are quite trivial, one could perform almost well with no talents. Talents mean very little.

    Old talent trees facilitated that one's spec would make a difference in how they play their character. Now it's all the same...

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