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  1. #201
    Very simple to understand. Same pay, same gear. They only play for their own good, so no need to award better gears. Just as everybody else is ok. Can't you understand?
    Quote Originally Posted by allatar View Post
    You appear very confused about the difference between opinion and substance. Hardcore raiders support wow to the exact same tune as everyone else, their monthly sub is the same as yours. No-one supports the game beyond their sub.

    And are you actually really stating that people doing harder content than you are able to do 'have no right' to better gear? I seriously need to get me some of the drugs you've been taking.

  2. #202
    Stood in the Fire allatar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billielecter View Post
    Yes but soon you will find H-modes are the least beneficial part in this game and sooner or later it will get changed.
    I wish you would stop talking down to us as if you knew some super secret. Least beneficial to who? You, because you can't take part? Me? They benefit me plenty as they give my guild a goal to work towards as that is what some of us enjoy doing. Your assumptions that you know oh so much more than th rest of us and telling us that 'times they'll be changin' is getting tedious.
    I don't know the recipe for success, but I know that the recipe for failure is trying to please everyone.

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  3. #203
    Agreed, heroic raids shouldn't exist at all; they just never should have made the normal modes trivial in the first place, because the implementation of heroic raids was just a means of making normal raids easier, thus completely invalidating your entire argument.

    Seriously, you have problems if you think that having one TINY fraction of the game be tuned to be very difficult so that those who wish for a challenge can get it somehow hurts or ruins the game. 99% of this game can be done without a functioning brain stem, but one tiny section requires effort and can't be half-assed by people playing for 2 hours a week, and having this real incentive to get better and strive for something takes away from the game? Allowing those who work their asses off to down insanely challenging bosses to get little goodies like slightly better gear, mounts or titles is unfair?

    Heroic raiders are a large percentage of the ones that do all the theorycrafting, mod-making, strategizing and so forth for PVE content, without them the game would look entirely different today, as many of the best advancements to the standard blizzard UI(informative raid frames, threat meters, boss ability mods, etc) would simply not exist.

    And secondly Blizzard is lazy and retarded in designing a varieties of raids so guess what, he comes up with an brilliant idea that he only needs designing one raid and separates it. So wow, we are so happy to have so many raids but unfortunately it is all the same faces and all the same contents. This alone makes this game much more boring than any time before while at the same time Blizzard is happy in cutting off the budget so he could save some money at the cost of sacrificing its fun. Strangely WOW has became a game that designers cuts off game content for saving money. Don't you tell me it's a smart way to run a company rather than committing suicide.
    So here, your argument is that heroic raids cause the loss of subscribers and is an example of blizzard cutting costs. How then, was the game growing by leaps and bounds before raiding became semi-casual, and began stagnating once raid content become diluted with easier normal modes and LFR? If you were trying to argue that heroic raiding was a bad idea because it diluted the difficulty, you might be at least partially correct in your argument, but thats not what you are trying to argue, is it? You're saying that because there is a tiny fraction of the game that people cant access without putting in effort, they quit; This makes you not only stupid, but wrong. Raiding content has continued to become more complex and well designed throughout the game's history; old raids were fun, sure, but raids in classic and BC were simple compared to raid encounters today. The only reason for this theoretical design stagnation you claim is that quite frankly, there are only so many ways to design a PVE encounter, so certain mechanics end up being re-used; this is not an indication of laziness, it's just a reality of encounter design.

    I only see some players showing off their H-achievement and spending their whole day to be addicted to this game. This is how the anti-social environment generates in this game.
    The power of the stupid emanating from that statement almost melted my face off. The heroic raiding community is arguably the last bastion of actual tight-knit players in the game; Players who coordinate, talk outside of raids, talk to people from other guilds to learn strategies and theorycraft, etc. Most heroic progression guilds, mine included, only raid 3-4 days a week anymore, I know people who log on and run random dungeons and LFR for more hours a week than i raid. What ruined the community and created incentives for anti-social behavior in WOW was dungeon and raid finder, things that allow you to advance without having to actually act nice to anyone or even form groups; you just sit in your capital city, queue for something and get thrown in with a motley crew of randoms all blaming each other for failing.

    This game, as a game, doesn't need to be so professional and cutting-edged that requires players to devote their life-time to knock down a boss. Yes, I know Blizzard is elitism, it is always the case and this elitism is rooted deeply in their designing mind. Pve should not be the most important part of this game. This is an online game and people should be organized rather than classified. Blizzard is trying to make raid hard and difficult to please hard-cores while I tell you the truth it only results in losing more subscribers. Because people are divided and defined and between different groups there is no communication or interaction.
    I think you're the one that's being "elitist" by saying that ALL the content should be designed for one specific group of players, and that hardcores should just have nothing. Hell you even went as far as to say that pve should NOT be the most important part of this game, as if your way of playing should be the ONLY way that matters. Blizzard has added nothing but incentives for different kinds of players to play over the years, if they were truly being "elitists"(which is a word that gets used without any real understanding of its meaning a lot by forum trolls), they never would have implemented daily quests, or dungeon finder, or heroic dungeons, or raid finder or heroic raids; They would have kept it the way it was in classic, where normal mode dungeons and raids were very hard, and if you wanted reputation with a faction, you went and grinded mobs for hours on end. The reason there is no interaction between the people at the top and the rest of the masses is fairly simple; because most of the masses don't socialize. I can'y say i have ever made any friends or added anyone to my realID from dungeon or raid finder, but i have literally made real-life friends from my raiding guilds. Dividing people between "obnoxious crappy players who whine, troll and blame other people" and "skilled players who devote themselves to mastering their class and raid mechanics" seems like something that probably should, and would, happen regardless of the existence of any content specifically designed for these skilled players.

    TLDR; you could not be more wrong if you tried.

  4. #204
    So many people feedin the troll ffs.
    Im gonna feed him too.
    There is 4 difficulties for raiding atm. pick one and keep doing that if you want to.
    99% of normal people don't care what you are doing, just have fun and don't post stupid shit on the internet about removing features from the game.
    Goddamn internets! Why the kiddo age has become so wide allready, you can't even tell if they are 12 or 20.
    I guess internet does that to teen's in todays world that they just don't learn how to behave untill they hit 30+ or something.

  5. #205
    To Blizzard if you are capable to understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by allatar View Post
    I wish you would stop talking down to us as if you knew some super secret. Least beneficial to who? You, because you can't take part? Me? They benefit me plenty as they give my guild a goal to work towards as that is what some of us enjoy doing. Your assumptions that you know oh so much more than th rest of us and telling us that 'times they'll be changin' is getting tedious.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by billielecter View Post
    Very simple to understand. Same pay, same gear. They only play for their own good, so no need to award better gears. Just as everybody else is ok. Can't you understand?
    You don't earn gear by paying for it though, you earn it through in-game effort. How much of a sub you pay is not relevant.
    If I buy two accounts and multibox, should I get better gear than you?

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by billielecter View Post
    Very simple to understand. Same pay, same gear. They only play for their own good, so no need to award better gears. Just as everybody else is ok. Can't you understand?
    "Everyone should be forced to play the same." Ok, so let's do heroic modes only. Why can't we do that? I said it should be that way, so it should be that way.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by billielecter View Post
    Very simple to understand. Same pay, same gear. They only play for their own good, so no need to award better gears. Just as everybody else is ok. Can't you understand?
    And WHY does it bother you that people have better than you when they actually comitted more time and effort???

  9. #209
    Stood in the Fire allatar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billielecter View Post
    Very simple to understand. Same pay, same gear. They only play for their own good, so no need to award better gears. Just as everybody else is ok. Can't you understand?
    You are clearly extrmely butthurt over people with better gear than you can get hold of. Please tell us what has made you feel like this, I am sure it will help us understand your derisable argument a lot better.

    Same pay, same gear, good lord. I have seen some stupid arguments on these boards but this one may well take the biscuit.
    I don't know the recipe for success, but I know that the recipe for failure is trying to please everyone.

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  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by stfouri View Post
    So many people feedin the troll ffs.
    Im gonna feed him too.
    There is 4 difficulties for raiding atm. pick one and keep doing that if you want to.
    99% of normal people don't care what you are doing, just have fun and don't post stupid shit on the internet about removing features from the game.
    Goddamn internets! Why the kiddo age has become so wide allready, you can't even tell if they are 12 or 20.
    I guess internet does that to teen's in todays world that they just don't learn how to behave untill they hit 30+ or something.
    We know what he is, we are simply letting him clarify what he is and are now waiting on the mods to lock this thread. It's really obvious what he's doing.

  11. #211
    For me heroic raiding isnt about the higher ilvl loot as many people who do not raid hc think. It is about the difficulty, normals are too easy for my guildies and I, so we love bosses to be a bit (or a lot) more difficult. Gives us something to strafe for, makes us work hard on playing the best we can. So that is one argument against the loot thing most people have. Lets continue to the social aspect this guy is worrying about, for me, just like western societies nowadays, MMO's reflect a growing sense of individualisme. That can not be helped by any designer unless he is gandhi or mother theresa. The more growing anti social behaviour of PLAYERS is counteracted by being in a guild and raiding with them. It gives a sense of teamwork, dedication to eachother and lets you develop a deeper connection then just doing a dungeon which you blitz through. So hc raiding is in that sense social, even more so then any other form except from maybe RP.

    I would invite people who have a bad idea about hc raiding to try it. See for themselves what is fun about it, and why people choose to do it. You would be surprised..

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Garmond View Post
    All i read was : I pay the same as H-raiders, therefore i want to be equal without wasting more time and effort.

    Is this OPs point? Im pretty sure there have been threads like this in the past, why is this one getting so mnuch discussion?
    Because elitists can't just let one guy make an outrageous comment and let it slide into obscurity because it directly attacks their content, but they feel free to make unlimited posts that constantly attack the casual players and their content. The moment someone says the same thing about their content? Oh HELL NOES!

  13. #213
    If you buy any video game for any price, you are not guaranteed to see the end of it. Your skill and ability to invest time into completing the content is what allows that.
    This is true also of literally every MMO. It would be true of WoW even with your changes, you'd still have to level and then do dungeons and do LFR to get the best gear.
    Shouldn't someone who doesn't want to raid have the same gear as you? They pay the same after all. Shouldn't someone who isn't a the level cap yet? That's a bit of an exagerration but there really isn't a world of difference between that and what you are suggesting.
    Gear Progression is an RPG mechanic, it is always going to exist. Harder content = better rewards is just a logical system. You don't even need the better gear if you aren't doing the harder content!

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Because elitists can't just let one guy make an outrageous comment and let it slide into obscurity because it directly attacks their content, but they feel free to make unlimited posts that constantly attack the casual players and their content. The moment someone says the same thing about their content? Oh HELL NOES!
    I don't know why you specify "elitists" and "casuals" as the two sides there, it's true of basically everyone regardless of where on the spectrum they fall.
    They will defend what they do because... well, it's what they do and they enjoy it and don't want to see it threatened, and will lash out verbally at anyone seen to be trying to take it away from them because they don't want it to be taken away.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    This has been done to death and I have no desire to rake over old ground however considering how little of the population have ever raided there is no evidence to suggest that difficulty was behind the success of WOW.

    It is not about whether players can or cannot, they don't want to so why should they pay for the 10% or so that do?
    Blizzard BETTER NOT UPDATE DWARF MODELS!!! I mean why they hell should 90% of the player base pay for dwarf models to be updated when only 10% of the population even play dwarfs?

    See how silly it sounds when you use your argument for other things that single out percentages of the entire wow population!

    I mean come on they developed a weekly on timeless isles that only hard core pet battle players will compleete... WHY did they waste my $$$ on damn pet battles that I don't even take care of... they could have made another pve quest on there with that time and would have served me better ... O wait... it's not all about me and I got more than my moneys worth IN MY OPINION out of patch 5.4 thus I stay subbed!
    Last edited by Odina; 2013-10-04 at 02:27 PM.

  15. #215
    The Patient Mûe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MestHoop View Post
    While I get your point, this isn't something that is recent...
    The very first raid with heroic modes in their current implementation was ICC (bar 10-25 man disparity). Heroic Marrowgar was quite easy, my guild wasn't amazing but we killed him on the first night after the reset where we killed normal Lich King and I think most people felt the same.
    In Cata, Halfus heroic... We 1 shot him with a poorly geared DPS in his off-spec as a tank. Similar story with that hunter boss in Firelands on heroic. Morchok heroic in DS? Same story.

    I haven't raided MoP heroic at all, but the first boss in a tier on heroic being easy? That has happened for years now. There isn't one specific group of people in WoW called "heroic raiders". There are different guilds, each progressing at their own speed. Some of these blaze through certain portions of content to reach the content designed for them. Back in firelands, only Rag heroic was designed for the harder guilds (with Baleroc being an exception due to gear constraints for a week or 2).

    Having superhard encounters that take weeks to kill was something people looked forward to in the past, but the playerbase as a whole has changed. When they released the wall that was Heroic Ragnaros, many guilds stopped raiding due to lack of motivation. When they finally killed him they felt a sigh of relief, not a epic feeling as you described. I to remember that feeling, but I think WoW has moved too much away from such an environment to have such encounters again.
    IMO I consider myself a "heroic raider". I finish the content in time and I am most often completely heroic equipped which defines me basicly as an heroic raider.

    Im not saying that i am a Hardcore raider, or a progress raider. I propably coul be one if I wanted to invest more than 6 hours time into raiding but I just dont want to.


    Now the curren't problem I have with these content races or World First or something like this is that they are plane boring.

    To be honoust... I don't think thats an achievement at all to raid 16+ hours a day for 2-3 weeks to get the content clear. It has nothing to do with skill at all. ( I am not saying that the top guilds in the world don't have skilled players, they propably have the most skilled players they can get) But with so much time and dedication its no a miracle they down these bosses so fast.

    I really think rayding should be time limited per day or even per week. Give raidguild just 10 hours of raiding per week and you will see the real difference in skill.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    I agree with this completely, I hate Heroics soo much that when my guild gets to that point I usually stop playing. I dont want to do the same raid over and over again just a bit harder. I like the Ulduar Model with activated "Hard modes" where the bosses acted completely differently.
    If I remember correctly they stated a few times that while they were very happy with the ulduar model it is very difficult to implement for multiple raids. And now that they have heroics and normals it would be weird for one tier to have hard-modes instead of normal/heroics.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by therayeffect View Post
    I know this is offtopic but your sig gave me a a bit of an eyeroll. I feel like the new thing people are going to argue about is the Asia worldfirst shit.
    Sorry, your ilevel needs to be higher to derail a thread kek.

    Keep on topic mate! Down with Heroic modes!




    You should be able to clear the hardest mode in a game without insane levels of time commitment. A competent guild that raids 3 days a week should be able to clear it in 1-2 months. Let them farm it for 4 months then release a new tier. Not so bad,

  18. #218
    Epic! Bosbeer's Avatar
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    This post should've been about why LFR is not necessary at all, since it never was.

  19. #219
    Stood in the Fire allatar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Because elitists can't just let one guy make an outrageous comment and let it slide into obscurity because it directly attacks their content, but they feel free to make unlimited posts that constantly attack the casual players and their content. The moment someone says the same thing about their content? Oh HELL NOES!
    You don't have to be an elitist to take offence at someone asking for contect you enjoy to be removed so they can feel better about themselves, which is exactly what the OP is after. For the record I have not once asked for any so called casual content to be removed: I don't use LFR myself as I don't enjoy the experience and don't need the rewards from it but as far as most of the rest of 'casual wow' goes I use it as much as anyone (a quick glance at my armory and ach list would prove that isn't just hot air).
    I don't know the recipe for success, but I know that the recipe for failure is trying to please everyone.

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  20. #220
    There is too much guess in it. It's not true. Strange enough I find some of you guys loving calling others stupid while you guys don't understand the nature of doing it is just stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by stfouri View Post
    So many people feedin the troll ffs.
    Im gonna feed him too.
    There is 4 difficulties for raiding atm. pick one and keep doing that if you want to.
    99% of normal people don't care what you are doing, just have fun and don't post stupid shit on the internet about removing features from the game.
    Goddamn internets! Why the kiddo age has become so wide allready, you can't even tell if they are 12 or 20.
    I guess internet does that to teen's in todays world that they just don't learn how to behave untill they hit 30+ or something.

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