Why the heroic raid is not necessary at all

[billielecter]

I am not trying to deprive you of any entertainment you have now. You can still play your H-modes but without additional awards. I think you are a very keen player so you won't mind that. H-modes are only acceptable when majority could have tasted it.

I don't need to think about it: I experience the amusement in the game every time I log in, whether that be to raid, farm my plot of land or do some fishing. The day the game stops amusing me is the day I will stop logging in and that day hasn't yet come in 8 years play. I suggest that if you aren't finding any amusement in the game you stop logging in and stop calling for things that others other than you do enjoy be removed.

[averykey]

I think heroic modes should exist but only as a means to get better transmog gear, titles and mounts. That's how high end PVP is and it's still a real thing. People still do that stuff because of the challenge and the fun of it. They like to go around looking down at the filthy Challengers and Rivals and Duelists and mock them. PVE though keeps getting easier and easier every week because you get gear out of heroic mode when it should only drop the same ilvl as Normal (indeed, all versions should drop the same gear just with a weekly lockout). That way people can just go along with whatever challenge they want. Really sick of seeing 'hardcore raiders' saying they're better than people when they run around in perfectly itemised BiS heroic gear fully upgraded and say "lol ur dps so bad" to people playing perfectly in LFR gear. That is an injustice. You should have to grind the gear, yes, but do it like PVP does it. If you have full Conquest gear but 1200 rating, you're bad. Time was you couldn't even get to higher ratings because people in upgraded elite conquest gear would just stomp you even if they were not good players (or, if they were, still have a huge advantage). PVP kept the gear equal enough so PVE should do the same.

So if heroic raiders really care about challenge and prestige, they'd be okay with it. They just need to see that 1% of the game's population doesn't matter to anyone else. Nobody else cares what heroic raiders do. They aren't better players, they just spend more time and have more gear. That's all it takes to win. You could argue "hurr durr LFR bads doing 20k dps" but that person is just bad for doing 20k DPS. What if someone does 200k DPS in LFR gear and 400k in better gear from just playing well? Why is that good person's performance lessened by a gear level? If people just want to grind gear, they'll just grind gear. If they want to play harder, why should they then have to grind more gear and have that as a barrier to entry? Why isn't simply playing better enough?

TL;DR heroic mode serves no purpose, if it's for prestige let it be that and no gear

heroic raiders are better.

[Cybran]

Regular for raiders (easier than heroic but harder than normal mode now)

The new tier is already too easy (at least the first 8 heroic bosses). Why should it be dumbed down even more?

[Blaschnack]

Old sport. I don't want to leave. I want change.

While I can understand that you would want something new and change, why does it have to be the game that changes? It could be you that changes your preferences (ok, not really something that happens alot with people, at least not over a short timeframe) OR you see if there are some other games that fit your preference more than WoW does.

At least that's what my plan is once i get fed up with the game or big changes made by blizzard. If they change the game in such a way that i don't enjoy it anymore, I will search for another game that I really do enjoy, because I rather devote my time and money to something that doesn't make me angry and/or unsatisfied because other people get better rewards for putting in more effort.

[Deleted]

heroic raiders are better.

You can proof this by simply going LFR with 460ilvl gear equiped and yet you beat most of the 510+ dps there. Been there done that with hunter and shadow priest as a dps and as a monk healer.

[Milkyz]

1. You're right. Heroic raiding isn't necessary at all. It's optional.

2. Different difficult modes for a game is Blizzard invention. Well, actually not.

3. Which is more Elitism: doing 5-mans (sometimes Karazhan) during the whole expansion (expansion, not patch) or being able to do a undertuned version of the general content (save a few exclusive bosses) that fits your playstyle?

4. So you invite a few friends to play WoW but they aren't really as good as you are, would you want to spend the rest of the patch (considering here that there was only a single difficult mode) killing Immerseus and wiping to Fallen Protectors? Or would you be a elitist and ditch your friends to join another group?

[skrump]

The problem isn't that wow doesn't need Heroic raids, It needs normal raids with optional Heroic bosses that offer superior loot.

Of course putting singular instanced bosses like Onyxia or Gruul that are much more challenging than the average main storyline raids would be a good thing too.

[phyx]

Old sport. I don't want to leave. I want change.

I'm really having a hard time understanding where all of this self-entitlement came from. Removing content because you won't play it? Why do some players think they have a right to demand change just because they pay 15$? No one is forcing you too. Blizzard tried to cater to all kinds of players over the years-

'Don't want a raid on schedule and want free loot? Here's LFR! It's great! It will destroy the last shred of realm community, but at least you get purples!'
'Normals are too hard? Here's Flex! It's exactly the same as LFR but you get better purples!' (although I think flex is not that bad and am secretly hoping it will spark hunger in people to move to harder raids)
'Don't want to raid at all? Here's HC Scenarios, HC dungeons, Battleground, Achievements, Proving Grounds, Pet Battles, PvP Arena' I mean you can even have a farm for god sake.

If you can't find something for yourself in WoW, that that's not really a game for you. What I'm hearing is that you want something, without having to put literally any effort whatsoever.

If they start removing all of the things I don't enjoy we'd only have Heroic Raids. Heroic raids are at least a bit challenging and if you remove that what do you have? Literally Pokemon. Nothing. Blizzard has made the game easier over the years or more convenient if you will. I'm not saying discovering new Flight Paths was challenging but all kinds of things could've happened while you were running to the nearest town to discover next flight path.

Steadily up until 2010 ( I think) subs were increasing, and WoW had A LOT less content than it has now. Trough Vanilla and TBC ridiculously small % of people stepped into the raiding environment. And yet, the game thrived. I think raiding is at the bottom of the 'Reasons I quit WoW' list.

[billielecter]

I think MMO is for cooperation and elitists are against that. H-modes players are playing more but not contributing more.

1. You're right. Heroic raiding isn't necessary at all. It's optional.

2. Different difficult modes for a game is Blizzard invention. Well, actually not.

3. Which is more Elitism: doing 5-mans (sometimes Karazhan) during the whole expansion (expansion, not patch) or being able to do a undertuned version of the general content (save a few exclusive bosses) that fits your playstyle?

4. So you invite a few friends to play WoW but they aren't really as good as you are, would you want to spend the rest of the patch (considering here that there was only a single difficult mode) killing Immerseus and wiping to Fallen Protectors? Or would you be a elitist and ditch your friends to join another group?

[Deleted]

I think MMO is for cooperation and elitists are against that. H-modes players are playing more but not contributing more.

I bet you're the guy in LFR who feasts and shares flasks for everyone.

[Deleted]

I am not trying to deprive you of any entertainment you have now. You can still play your H-modes but without additional awards. I think you are a very keen player so you won't mind that. H-modes are only acceptable when majority could have tasted it.

You advocate for the heroic raiding because resources of Blizzard are wasted on content that the majority of the playerbase is never going to see. You also say in the same post that rewards from heroic raiding should be purely cosmetic (implying that heroic raiding will still exist). But you think having the same boss over and over is bad design so Blizzard should design different bosses for each tier of difficulty (thus using even more resources?). Frankly your posts make no sense and if your intention was to troll you could have made a better effort.

My guess is you got offended because some heroic raider pointed out how bad you are in LFR (and statistics say he was probably right). But trust me, removing different gear levels wouldn't solve your problem, you'd still get smacked by any good player, the only difference would be you wouldn't have the excuse "his gear is OP, let's go whine to MMO-forums about it"

[Pann]

Of course I know that. The thing is, you're being very broad with that. What are you talking about exactly, Dungeons, Dailies, Leveling, or PvP?

The only area that I have seen constantly screwed over would have to be PvP. Which is exactly what I have been doing exclusively for the past two expansions; more specifically, Arena. So I don't need you to really remind me that certain areas don't get as much content as others; however I'm not going to pout about that and lay the blame on Heroic or even Normal raiders. It's simply not their fault, I wouldn't want them to be deprived of content just as much as I don't like being deprived of content.

And the reason why LFR was added was to alleviate the gearing up process; to make Normal raiding easily accessible. Before it was in the game you had to do a lot more work to even reach raiding, and now people are saying that it was a punch in the face? It really wasn't. It was kind. Would you rather do 25 dailies and dungeons each day to gear up? I wouldn't. Flex only helps along with LFR to gear you up to current normals quicker. I really don't see why people are complaining and blaming the 'design' as if Normal and Heroic raiding were designed to keep you down...

And honestly, some people even seem to be content with just doing LFR for raiding, and that's perfectly fine as well. As I've said, there is 4 difficulties that suits different types of players and all of them have been getting hot fixes, it's not like they're being ignored. If raiding isn't your thing, then there are dungeons, there's scenarios, there's challenge modes, there's proving grounds, brawlers guild, PvP, achievements. Find something that you find fun and do it. That's what I've done and I keep doing it. But I would never want to deprive somebody else of something simply because they get more content than me, I would feel silly doing such a thing. Instead I would hope that both of us get more content. That's for Blizzard to decide though. We're paying to play their game, and they're the ones who decide where that money goes towards.

Blizzard have admitted that raids are made at the expense of dungeons. Given the complaints about dungeons in Cata and the near instant loss of 600k players, incidentally this number is three times larger than the current heroic raiding population, after Ghostcrawler's infamous Heroics Are Hard blog it is reasonable to assume that as a whole the population values dungeons above raids.

LFR was added because it was impossible to justify the expense associated with producing raids for such a small audience instead of focussing on producing content that majority wanted or even attempting to Blizzard decided it would try to get everyone raiding. The majority of players never wanted to do raids how is giving them an easier version of content they never wanted "kind?" If anything it was kind to raiding population as rather than shifting focus onto the production of content they might not enjoy it has allowed Blizzard to focus even more on raids.

Some people do enjoy LFR that still does not change the fact that there is no form of meaningful character progression outside of raids despite at least 80% of the population showing no interest in them. Although they are a tiny minority heroic raiders get more content aimed that them any other group of players whilst the majority are expected to be happy with a watered down version of that content. Why should 95% of players pay for the development of content that only the other 5% will get to enjoy?

Ultimately it is Blizzard that decides to how to spend the money they receive and ultimately it is Blizzard that has to pay the price when they get that decision wrong. Which so far has cost them to the tune of 2.7 million subscribers since the launch of MOP and the increased focus on raids whilst not all losses will be due to this Blizzard, themselves, have admitted that they have failed to engage the casual audience in this expansion and expect further losses.

[Deleted]

Well, people don't share flasks, but there are always a few nice guys who generally sum up tactics and have Banquets. At least in most of my runs. It seems just here people expect the worst of everything.

Yea most runs have 1 or 2 ppl who does that but for everyone of those kind of players there are 5-6 whiners in group. that's the cancer of LFR.

- - - Updated - - -

Ultimately it is Blizzard that decides to how to spend the money they receive and ultimately it is Blizzard that has to pay the price when they get that decision wrong. Which so far has cost them to the tune of 2.7 million subscribers since the launch of MOP and the increased focus on raids whilst not all losses will be due to this Blizzard, themselves, have admitted that they have failed to engage the casual audience in this expansion and expect further losses.

Have you ever considered that Vanilla, TBC and Wotlk had no easy mode content YET the population flourished. It might have something to do with lose thou. Illidan and Arthas are better known that Deathwing and other villains due the WC3

[Allatar]

I think MMO is for cooperation and elitists are against that. H-modes players are playing more but not contributing more.

Slow down there fella with that massive broad brush you're painting with! Not all heroic raiders are elitists. having the ability to play at a mre advanced level than the majority does not an elitist make.

You are more and more coming across as someone with a personal beef that you aren't telling us about. Got kicked from a group or called out for being a bit slow did we?

[Rhyseh]

I want to say it straightly and directly that heroic raid is the worst thing that Blizzard implanted in this game.

I agree with this guy. Lets go back to TBC where all raids were basically heroic raids and that was the only difficulty there was. Golden age of raiding imo. Cut the LFR/Flex/Normal that they introduced for the mouth breathers and give us real raiding back.

[Deleted]

Lastly LFR raid isn't heroic at all. It's only a boss piled up with statics and pretty effects that deal no damage which requires you with no gears and more devoting time (thanks to determination buff). I don't see anything may represent a raid here. I only see some players showing off their free epics and spending their whole day to be addicted to this game. This is how the anti-social environment generates in this game. Pve should not be the most important part of this game. This is an online game and people should be organized rather than classified. Blizzard is trying to make raid easy and a joke to please bad players while I tell you the truth it only results in losing more subscribers. Because people are random strangers in LFR there is no communication or interaction.

Wow, now I see it that way it makes much more sense. And I'm not advocating for the removal of LFR it's here to stay (although imo it should have never been implemented in the first place).

[billielecter]

WOW survives because it is simplifying. It is still losing players because H-modes are not popular and contributing overall. Players now demand a game content which can be revealed to everyone instead of exclusive bosses or encounters. Wow can attract more subscribers when it becomes easier.

You advocate for the heroic raiding because resources of Blizzard are wasted on content that the majority of the playerbase is never going to see. You also say in the same post that rewards from heroic raiding should be purely cosmetic (implying that heroic raiding will still exist). But you think having the same boss over and over is bad design so Blizzard should design different bosses for each tier of difficulty (thus using even more resources?). Frankly your posts make no sense and if your intention was to troll you could have made a better effort.

My guess is you got offended because some heroic raider pointed out how bad you are in LFR (and statistics say he was probably right). But trust me, removing different gear levels wouldn't solve your problem, you'd still get smacked by any good player, the only difference would be you wouldn't have the excuse "his gear is OP, let's go whine to MMO-forums about it"

[l33t]

Well, people don't share flasks, but there are always a few nice guys who generally sum up tactics and have Banquets. At least in most of my runs. It seems just here people expect the worst of everything.

I bet if you look at that people more closely, they'll turn to be alts of raiders.

I run my own guild, and we have heroic-10 and casual friends. So, casual friends tend to never share. They took goodies from guild bank, and never put anything in it. They use guild repairs, and never contribute their gold. They just don't understand why should they share, and tend to think world is turning around them. It is normal for them to join our vent while we are progressing some boss and start to ask dull questions which wowhead-like resources could easily give them answers in a couple of seconds; and they take displeasure when asked politely to not bother us while we are trying to score a kill. They think people are obligated to drop anything and come in a second to help their alt with some arena quest in Nagrand just at the very moment they ask in guild chat. And all that stuff. I don't blame these people, they are what they are. I'm happy to have them in my guild, and our ten raiders usually drive them through Flex every week (we did LFR runs for them before Flex), killing everything and having lots of fun in process. I just wonder since when they suddenly developed such a strange point of view they did.

So, no. We' re not expecting the worst, we're just realists with some experience.

[Akraen]

I would much, much prefer a steeper difficulty curve in normal then drop heroic difficulty.

BC had it right.

[Pann]

You do realise that any player has access to every content game has to offer? Noone is restricting you to lfr or normal only.

No one is saying that players do not have access to the content only that the majority do not want to do that content.

Look here. You buy cars; car companies use your money to build Formula 1 supercars to participate in different races. You think it is not fair that while you're basically funding this activity, you cannot join these competitions on your car? Your very attidude is wrong, because you basically can; but to do that, you'll have to devote yourself to that activity, to gain skills needed for pro racing. That is just the same thing with wow nowadays. You wanna raid heroic modes - you develop your skills and devote some time to play pro. What you propose instead is mindless mix of scrubs and pros racing together in a mix of every vehicle available; while this idea as an concept is somewhat funny to watch, I assure you that there is neither a competition in that, nor fun in participating for both sides.

The majority of car manufacturers do not participate in Formula 1 racing those that do, Ferrari, McLaren, Lotus, Mercedes, etc all produce sports cars as such having a fast/winning racing car is beneficial to their brand both in the form of advertising and as a test bed for their commercial products. Not to mention that manufacturers that take part in Formula 1 actually make a profit from doing so.

Players do not want to raid why would they spend time devoting themselves to getting better at an activity they have no interest in? I did not propose anything merely pointed out that it was a raw deal for the majority to pay for the production of content for the minority to enjoy.