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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    --Irrelevant statistics, imo--


    ****

    LK 25s difficulty is overrated due to the pacing mechanism of only allowing 50 attempts per week on the boss. It took 6 weeks to kill, but that was in actuality only ~325 wipes. Had there been no limitation on attempts a serious raiding guild would go through that in a couple of days learning a boss. So the real difficulty of LK was the limited attempts mechanic, which was total bullshit.

    I also agree with Mu'ru being the most challenging at the time. It was the tightest tuned I've seen anything, and the first boss that really made sure every single person in the raid had a job they had to execute flawlessly throughout the fight.
    I REALLY hate information like this, the amount people raid during progression has increased exponentially since Vanilla and BC. Getting world buffs, and things like that, which were "necessary" because they existed, and qutie frankly, people were terrible at min/maxing, reduced the attempts you get per night by a lot. If you took a guild such as Method or Blood Legion which raid 14+ hours a day during progression, Ouro wouldn't have taken 87 days. LK's 50 attempt/week was irrelevant, we used alt raids for practice. Lich King at 0% was theoretically impossible based on the damage requirement until much better gear, it would have easily topped this list if the stacking buff wasn't introduced almost immediately.

    Mechanically, the bosses in AQ40 that people like to nostalgically say were hard, can't hold a candle to Yogg0/LK/etc.
    Last edited by Obsession; 2013-10-04 at 05:05 PM.

  2. #162
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
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    was it Defile what made things difficult? especially to oceanic raiders with higher latency....
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  3. #163
    Mechagnome Xe4ro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broflmao View Post
    Aha... ahaa......

    What?
    yeah alliance had problems with mass poison debuffs (no shaman totem )


    Quote Originally Posted by fiestatastic View Post
    This stuff makes me LOL IRL always, thx! We have a few vanilla raiders in my guild and other than one of them (who is still not good, but isn't terrible) they are all terrible. One of them is often telling us about how he killed original rag when it was current content and is without a doubt the worst raider I've ever played with, we try to avoid his comments of "bring me! bring me!" when someone doesn't show up and we have open spots even for flex raid he'd be able to manage to find some way to wipe us. I've done dungeons with the guy and he tanks and people will try to vote kick him and then leave, every single time.

    If you had to raid with a group full of people like that, OF COURSE the encounter is going to be super hard! So yeah, I guess people today don't know what difficult raiding is.
    Yeah of course all people that raided during classic must be bad because you have a few bad guys in your guild that played back then? Amazing logic you have there.
    Last edited by Xe4ro; 2013-10-04 at 05:30 PM.
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  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Felarion View Post
    I think yes. Nobody kill him before 5% nerf hit so yes.
    While statistically this is true, Paragon had several very close attempts at 0% and without a doubt would have had it down without any buffs if they had unlimited attempts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    was it Defile what made things difficult? especially to oceanic raiders with higher latency....
    It was Defile + every 2nd wave of Valks. Defile on it's own was fine but having all of 2s to move out of Defile once people had been picked up by Valks and then get the Valks to 50%, which was made harder with everyone who fucked up with a melee heavier composition. Once you made it to p3 2-3 times and had a good crack at it you had it killed generally. For my guild at the time we had 2 solid p3 wipes (1 to Enrage, 1 shortly before it) before we got into a good p3 with enough people up to beat the enrage timer.
    Last edited by Matt0193; 2013-10-04 at 07:24 PM.
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  5. #165
    Defiles and Valks were the reason this fight sucked so much, agree Thassarian.

  6. #166
    From personal experience it was either 25 HC LK or Illidan. Both are very different as encounters and in our guild we had a lot of change regarding the roster so hard to decide. I guess Illidan was harder regarding execution but Lich King might've been harder in the numbers department such as DPS and so on.

    Although, from a "spectators" view the best guilds in the world seemed to have a lot of trouble on Ragnaros, Dark Animus, Siegecrafter if I'd have to choose one of the most recent ones. It's hard to decide which one is the hardest. At least in my opinion.
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  7. #167
    People keep saying these bizarre things like there was no min/maxing in vanilla, or nobody had rotations, and there were no mechanics. But then I remember that the vast vast vast majority of people playing now never got to see any of that raid content when it was new. Most "raiding guilds" in vanilla, never even finished Molten Core, and all of MC except for Rag was really faceroll.

    We most definitely had rotations at level 60. Min/maxing, while not called that, was definitely a thing. And some boss mechanics would ruin your day. Remember Razorgore? Of course you don't, because most people never got through that fight if they even attempted it. It had nothing to do with rotations or any of that, it was a pure skill fight. If you were bad, you lost. Chromaggus? Nefarian? And then, if you made it through BWL and got it on farm status and geared up, AQ40 kicked you right in the face. Like right from the start all the way to twin emps and twin emps were brutal beyond anything up to that point in the game. That fight destroyed raiding guilds. I don't mean it was just difficult, I mean it literally killed raiding guilds. So many guilds failed at that fight and disbanded. C'thun was literally unkillable for quite awhile.

    Naxx was difficult, but Naxx also had some push-over bosses. Then 4 Horsemen was pretty much Twin Emps all over again, and KT was pretty horrible too. Kael/Vashj in BC were pretty great. Illidan was an total pushover. Once we had access to him he died in like one reset. By far the biggest disappointment during my time as a raider. M'uru was painful, KJ was painful, and then everything between that and hard mode Mimiron and Yogg was laughable. ToGC was a joke. And then ICC was the point where I basically stopped raiding outside of helping a casual guild that had some of my friends in it.

    Some current stuff looks very difficult. I'm not trying to take anything away from modern WoW, but every time I see these weird "THERE WAS NO MIN/MAXING AND NOBODY HAD A ROTATION!" posts I just have to roll my eyes. Maybe you didn't have an optimal rotation .. but we did. O.o

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Thassarian View Post
    While statistically this is true, Paragon had several very close attempts at 0% and without a doubt would have had it down without any buffs if they had unlimited attempts.
    They were close at 0%, did that mean they die at 3%, or 6%, or 9%? During the RP :P?

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    People keep saying these bizarre things like there was no min/maxing in vanilla, or nobody had rotations, and there were no mechanics. But then I remember that the vast vast vast majority of people playing now never got to see any of that raid content when it was new. Most "raiding guilds" in vanilla, never even finished Molten Core, and all of MC except for Rag was really faceroll.

    We most definitely had rotations at level 60. Min/maxing, while not called that, was definitely a thing. And some boss mechanics would ruin your day. Remember Razorgore? Of course you don't, because most people never got through that fight if they even attempted it. It had nothing to do with rotations or any of that, it was a pure skill fight. If you were bad, you lost. Chromaggus? Nefarian? And then, if you made it through BWL and got it on farm status and geared up, AQ40 kicked you right in the face. Like right from the start all the way to twin emps and twin emps were brutal beyond anything up to that point in the game. That fight destroyed raiding guilds. I don't mean it was just difficult, I mean it literally killed raiding guilds. So many guilds failed at that fight and disbanded. C'thun was literally unkillable for quite awhile.

    Naxx was difficult, but Naxx also had some push-over bosses. Then 4 Horsemen was pretty much Twin Emps all over again, and KT was pretty horrible too. Kael/Vashj in BC were pretty great. Illidan was an total pushover. Once we had access to him he died in like one reset. By far the biggest disappointment during my time as a raider. M'uru was painful, KJ was painful, and then everything between that and hard mode Mimiron and Yogg was laughable. ToGC was a joke. And then ICC was the point where I basically stopped raiding outside of helping a casual guild that had some of my friends in it.

    Some current stuff looks very difficult. I'm not trying to take anything away from modern WoW, but every time I see these weird "THERE WAS NO MIN/MAXING AND NOBODY HAD A ROTATION!" posts I just have to roll my eyes. Maybe you didn't have an optimal rotation .. but we did. O.o
    People associate "skill" as your reflexes and not standing in bad stuff these days, while executing your rotation. If you compare it to vanilla then well, you can see why everyone thinks the average raider back then was worse than the average raider now (and I agree, people were awful back then. I watched our MC 40 Ragnaros kill video about a month ago and laughed about it).

    However, people also don't understand what made raids difficult back then, and how correlating player skill of today to player skill of back then is silly. Fights were designed in tandem to that, and in that sense, fights were harder back in the day - especially since gear checks existed (as boring as they are, in MMOs they serve as the ultimate difficulty tuner, something which we lack today) and you had to do lots of preparations outside of raids to even be ready to raid at the top end to begin with - which is pretty equivalent to how much top guilds raid now, just that you didn't do actual raiding with most of the time and that if you wanted to raid at a decent level, you had to do that.

    I was definitely a horrible player back in the day, my healing as a priest on c'thun for example consisted of spamming renew on the entire raid even though I raid led 40 people by typing haha. I am a way better player now however, and that is in part due to the game evolving and thus needing me to be better to accommodate that as well.

    So basically you won't convince anyone who hasn't touched vanilla or didn't raid seriously back then about how hard raids were. They simply watch a video and think it's as simple as sitting there and mashing a button...well it actually was, but raiding was tough for other reasons is all I'm saying :P who's to say which one is truly harder?
    Last edited by Angelicat; 2013-10-04 at 08:01 PM.

  10. #170
    Legendary! muto's Avatar
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    Heroic Lich king wasn't even the hardest boss of the expansion, Yogg Zero Keeper was. It was a few months before it was finally defeated by an Asian guild, Stars, and half their raid comp was Afflic. Warlocks, and Spriests.

  11. #171
    Brewmaster cyqu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgePayne View Post
    C'thun was still the most difficult boss in wow history.
    The developers deisgned him to be very powerful as he was the first Old God that we faced and as such they planned his fight to be above anything the playerbase had ever fought before.

    Yes I will the first to admit his difficulty was insane and was completely out of the realm of the players.
    But concept wise his difficulty was exactly what they were aimming for.
    you could actually kill it due to bugs in the fight, it wasn't overtuned at all. im not sure how many times its been stated.

    these threads always bring out the fullest retard in everyone, and some how everyone turns into a vanilla raider who cleared naxx 40 and muru pre nerf.
    Last edited by cyqu; 2013-10-04 at 08:36 PM.
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  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    They were close at 0%, did that mean they die at 3%, or 6%, or 9%? During the RP :P?
    Ph for heavens sake, isnt it obvios? He means the ICC buff.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by JudgePayne View Post
    It is funny because if you managed to read on, you would see that I explained my post in more detail. I am in work atm and had to type fast.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Dig Dig Dig, one bad post due to boss walking into the office. Guess I'll keep digging
    Satan and the pope could have busted through your wall in a fist fight and your comment and then reason for it makes no sense. Why mention bl/hero at all? You made it sound like one side had it and not the other, then when called out on it you come up with more bs.
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  14. #174
    I'd say Yogg-Saron was much harder than him. I'd even say he's the hardest boss of "modern" raids (post-TBC; dividing them like that because I personally believe that the most drastic changes happened in WotLK).
    Quote Originally Posted by JudgePayne View Post
    But as difficulty goes vanilla had a huge amount of super difficult bosses. People today do not know what difficult raiding is.
    Also super-bad players and super-bad itemization.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    People keep saying these bizarre things like there was no min/maxing in vanilla, or nobody had rotations, and there were no mechanics. But then I remember that the vast vast vast majority of people playing now never got to see any of that raid content when it was new. Most "raiding guilds" in vanilla, never even finished Molten Core, and all of MC except for Rag was really faceroll.

    We most definitely had rotations at level 60. Min/maxing, while not called that, was definitely a thing. And some boss mechanics would ruin your day. Remember Razorgore? Of course you don't, because most people never got through that fight if they even attempted it. It had nothing to do with rotations or any of that, it was a pure skill fight. If you were bad, you lost. Chromaggus? Nefarian? And then, if you made it through BWL and got it on farm status and geared up, AQ40 kicked you right in the face. Like right from the start all the way to twin emps and twin emps were brutal beyond anything up to that point in the game. That fight destroyed raiding guilds. I don't mean it was just difficult, I mean it literally killed raiding guilds. So many guilds failed at that fight and disbanded. C'thun was literally unkillable for quite awhile.

    Naxx was difficult, but Naxx also had some push-over bosses. Then 4 Horsemen was pretty much Twin Emps all over again, and KT was pretty horrible too. Kael/Vashj in BC were pretty great. Illidan was an total pushover. Once we had access to him he died in like one reset. By far the biggest disappointment during my time as a raider. M'uru was painful, KJ was painful, and then everything between that and hard mode Mimiron and Yogg was laughable. ToGC was a joke. And then ICC was the point where I basically stopped raiding outside of helping a casual guild that had some of my friends in it.

    Some current stuff looks very difficult. I'm not trying to take anything away from modern WoW, but every time I see these weird "THERE WAS NO MIN/MAXING AND NOBODY HAD A ROTATION!" posts I just have to roll my eyes. Maybe you didn't have an optimal rotation .. but we did. O.o
    Bull. There were 1/10th of the options in vanilla, even from BC. In vanilla you got this piece of gear, you picked this specific spec, and you mashed these 3 buttons, and if your gear was good enough, the boss died.

    You could consider it min/max I suppose, but everything was set. You got this gear, you got this enchant, you picked this exact spec, etc. There were no options, either you did that or you failed.

    The only thing hard about any boss in vanilla was getting 40 people awake, online, and sitting at their keyboards paying attention (i.e. not watching tv while pushing the 3 buttons in their 'rotation').

    I know people like to romanticize the difficulty of it, but the only reason those bosses lived so long is because there was MAYBE one good raiding guild on any given server. Now there are 3 even on the most dead server, up to 60-70 on high pop. A fraction of the good players there are today.
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  16. #176
    Rag 25HC was IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, the hardest END of tier boss ever in its original state (not including garrosh here cause I haven't done it yet).

    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post

    M'uru, luck.. (tanks not gettign randomly oneshotted due to unlucky streaks of avoidance? sounds like fun lets do it.. orbs spawning at a random place in the room (/pray not to many dps were near it or we will die from softenrage and its nothing we can do about it..) andother great rng mechanic.. oh and (boss tuned to tight? better rely on locks enslaved demons and pray to god the dont break midfight.. ) why not just play the lottery for loot? TL;dr easy fights tuned hard and based on rng mechanics sucks balls.

    but rag 25 hc, was a great fight. and among the other insanly hard fights blizz have thrown at us this one was actually hard due to its mechanics and not due to retarded tuning.
    this was imo the ahrdest and best encounter blizz ever have done. (and its seconded by leishen hc imo).
    M'uru was not luck based and tanks did not randomly get one shot if they weren't shit. (Yes there was rng involved but if you did it once a repeat was not hard)

    Rag hc 25 was more luck based, oh final dance before meteor? GG an extra 10seconds to skip said meteor ENJOY.
    Oh a p4 trap/icetrap on the other side of the room? Have fun.

    Both fights had rng, but i'd say rag hc's rng could turn the fight around alot more then M'uru's.
    Last edited by Nuckels; 2013-10-04 at 11:31 PM.

  17. #177
    Leaving aside the specifics of "days until it was killed," I definitely have to say Yogg +0 is the hardest. At the time it was killed, the #1 PvE guild in the world was saying it was mathematically impossible.

    It wasn't bugged. Well... it sort of was bugged before it was killed, and it was killed in a bugged way, but it wasn't bugged in a way that made the fight impossible. It was just that hard of a fight, required absolute precision, it required specific class stacking, it required a lot of attempts, and if you actually look at the list, it is the boss that was longest to be killed, if you factor in bugs.

    The people talking about Lei Shen being "real hard" imo are clueless. Yogg +0 was still freakin hard as hell, as was H-LK, when everyone was uber geared at the end of the expansion. Heroic Lei Shen is pretty much a pushover right now if your raid ilevel is >550. I could make the same case for Ragnaros. You couldn't outgear certain mechanics in Yogg 0 or H-LK. Now you can of course... but I still see wipes to Yogg +0.

  18. #178
    Herald of the Titans CosmicGuitars's Avatar
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    God no. I wouldn't call him the hardest boss. My guild had very few issues with LK. It was H-Sindragosa 25 that gave us a run for our money.. though I wouldn't call her the hardest, either.

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