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  1. #1

    Combat - highly underrated PvE spec?

    From our first pass through SoO I was lucky enough to get a 2.6 main hand, so I thought it would be fun to try my once favorite spec, combat, once again. And so far, the results have been astonishing. The run we did today, with 548 combat, I did (logs here):

    Fallen Protectors: 362k
    Norushen: 271k
    Sha of Pride: 288k
    Galakras: 277k
    Iron Juggernaut: 209k (was dead last 40 sec)
    Kor'kron Dark Shaman: 197k (was dead last 60 sec)
    General Nazgrim: 254k
    Malkorok: 283k

    It's not the absolute top of specs of course, but compared to what http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...14/30/default/ will have you believe, it's very much in the mix.

    So if you haven't already, I strongly encourage you to try out combat on your next raid. It's always fun to play another spec for a change

    ...and this one packs more punch than what the sims will have you believe.
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor

  2. #2
    I wouldn't call it underrated. Its pretty well understood that combat with AoC and T15 4pc is competitive with assassination on single target.
    Fierydemise
    The Horsemen-US 25 (25 man). 9 Hours per Week.
    Rogue Chat-Blogging about Rogue PvE and Theorycrafting (Twitter)

  3. #3
    HS form the topic ( i'm also enjoying the combat spec but i'm not as lucky as you with the weapons ) . But if nothing have changed from your amory then your forgot to put prismatic gems socket on your weapons .


    ps: Destined to Lachtobi


    EDIT : My Bad i was so sure we could . It seems it was never intended !
    Last edited by Morllinor; 2013-09-20 at 03:28 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Morllinor View Post
    HS form the topic ( i'm also enjoying the combat spec but i'm not as lucky as you with the weapons ) . But if nothing have changed from your amory then your forgot to put prismatic gems socket on your weapons .


    ps: Destined to Lachtobi
    You can't on SoO weapons. Was pretty disappointed after buying one, can't even get a refund.
    Fluorescent - Fluo - currently retired, playing other stuff

    i5-4670k @ 4.5 / Thermalright Silver Arrow Extreme / Gigabyte Z87X-D3H / 8GB DDR3-1600 RAM / Gigabyte GTX 760

  5. #5
    Mechagnome -Raer-'s Avatar
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    I only have flex weapons and 4pT16 and I'm loving combat. Once I get AoC...oh the glorious fun.(inc arthritis)

  6. #6
    Combat is gonna require a lot more from your gear, tbh. You can play Sin with almost item that drops, but Combat needs t15/16 4pc bonuses and AoC.

    That said, Combat's as strong as Sin on single target and probably stronger on any cleave fight.

  7. #7
    Got AoC, Fist from Fallen Protectors and Mace from Iron juggernaut, so going combat was natural choice for me and so far I've been very competitive. It's a nice chance also from playing Assassination for a long time. So much cleave in the fights <3 Blade Flurry

  8. #8
    Yes, from what i've seen there are a lot of cleave possibilities n the SoO fights - combat is a really solid option.

    Me and my RL are always fighting for who does more damage we decided that since he likes combat more, he will stay combat and i play assa - so we don't even need the same weapons.

  9. #9
    I went combat in the middle of this reset after getting a normal seismic bore. My luck with assassination weapons has been so atrocious I was using a normal magera's fang and the 483 raid finder dagger with a sha gem (I get a few 502 raid finder daggers but ShC said this was better due to agi). After getting seismic bore, I was able to use the zeeg's I had saved from heroic ToT, giving my MH a 31 ilvl upgrade and my OH a 60 ilvl upgrade. Even without AoC, it was HUGE. I even parsed on Dark Shaman without a legendary cloak (getting it next week most likely, at 10/12 runestones atm) or AoC. Combat seems to just work for a lot of fights this tier, and since there are a bunch of others in my 10 man with an "execute" I don't feel like the loss of dispatch is that bad.

  10. #10
    These are some insane Numbers Lachtobi, can u give us some insight how you pulled that off? you got some good rankings there

    Edit: been playing Assa since 5.0, so im fairly new to combat, and im nowhere near lachtobi's number, with similar gear (flex aoc, hctf weapon of twins in tot). have been reading all guides i could found, but it seems like im missing something / doing something teribad wrong
    Last edited by hYrsch; 2013-09-20 at 02:04 PM.

  11. #11
    I wouldn't put too much into the ranks - the rogue community is still mostly stuck on assassination and seeing as it's still the spec to beat, it means that the sample size is vastly skewed towards that spec. Beyond that, there are two major things about combat you need to master, and then and a lot of nitty gritty things that can help you go the last few %:

    1) Pace of Play. Blizzard stated that combat was getting too spammy so they increased the cost of SS to 50 energy. What they failed to factor in was AoC, which - combined with T15 4P - makes it a pretty intense spec during burst phases. And seeing as that trinket now gives you close to 30% uptime on AR/SB, you don't have time to plan ahead which abilities to use next, but often simply react to what the CP bar tells you. And be warned: this incidentally makes it impossible to play combat well with a latency above 150.

    2) Blade Flurry. There's actually two parts to this: toggling and positioning. Toggling BF on/off sounds easy, but being in cleave range on multi-target fights (while staying out of shit) is actually a very fluid thing, and the minute you're not, you want the full energy regen. Accordingly, make sure BF is keybinded to something you're very comfortable spamming at any point and learn to play tight with it. The second part, positioning, can only be learned with experience, and involves a lot of Redirecting depending on what you need to focus and the abilities your targets use. Sprint should be used very liberally as well, as the combined reduction of AoC and Restless Blades makes its CD almost trivial.

    Combining these - positioning, pace and a very limited reaction time - you'll find that unlike assassination, perfect execution is not something you reach, but something you work towards. For me that's the biggest motivation of all.
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor

  12. #12
    Do you have a Weak aura or something to see if you are in range of all targets when blade flurring? Could be quite useful

  13. #13
    Interesting concept. You could definetly make one that would inform you that your blade flurry was hitting something I'm not sure if you could make a range specific weak aura though. You could possibly modify vuhdu's ranging capabilities to only include hostile targets and include them in the UI while excluding friendly targets. Thanks for giving my something to play with when I get home

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Yes, from what i've seen there are a lot of cleave possibilities n the SoO fights - combat is a really solid option.
    This is true but I think its an open question about how much of that cleave potential is useful. I'm not talking about padding on fights like Paragons but the question of "is trading single target dps to get the adds down faster really worth it?" Galakras is a good example of this, there are really only a couple kinds of dangerous adds, Shamans and Bonecrushers and the other adds while they need to die eventually don't necessarily need to die now. Is the tradeoff of less damage on the Shamans or Bonecrushers worth killing the grunts marginally faster? I'm unconvinced. Blade Flurry is good on fights where there are a large number of targets with similar target priority but when you have priority targets and targets that will eventually die to incidental AoE/multidotting I'm not sure that tradeoff is worthwhile.
    Fierydemise
    The Horsemen-US 25 (25 man). 9 Hours per Week.
    Rogue Chat-Blogging about Rogue PvE and Theorycrafting (Twitter)

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    This is true but I think its an open question about how much of that cleave potential is useful. I'm not talking about padding on fights like Paragons but the question of "is trading single target dps to get the adds down faster really worth it?" Galakras is a good example of this, there are really only a couple kinds of dangerous adds, Shamans and Bonecrushers and the other adds while they need to die eventually don't necessarily need to die now. Is the tradeoff of less damage on the Shamans or Bonecrushers worth killing the grunts marginally faster? I'm unconvinced. Blade Flurry is good on fights where there are a large number of targets with similar target priority but when you have priority targets and targets that will eventually die to incidental AoE/multidotting I'm not sure that tradeoff is worthwhile.
    There are lots of fights, however, where the cleave potential IS needed and helpful. Fallen protectors and dark shaman come to mind first.

    Additionally, another factor to consider is luck with gear. As I posted earlier, my luck with daggers has been terrible. Combat offered a way out with better weapons. I think given an AoC and all other things being equal, from a progression standpoint, the best spec is the one you have the best weapons available for. If you have a choice at the same ilvl, assassination may win out for a lot of fights (certainly the potent execute is important on quite a few), but I really don't see there being a WRONG answer this tier.

  16. #16
    That is a good point, but unless I'm mistaken, BF is still a pretty 'efficient' AE by which I mean low loss of damage on primary target. I'm pretty sure something like a WW monk looses more single target damage spamming their spinning kick than we do with BF. Now if you are really only using 100% incidental cleaves and multi dotting to kill everything but shaman / bonecrushers, I can see your point. But for my raid, that isn't happening (semi-hc, got 13/13 but fairly late) because its nearly impossible to get our dps to not AE when some one else is already AE'ing. If you help BF down the little ones, you also help force people back to single target faster when they are gone.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by zurm View Post
    There are lots of fights, however, where the cleave potential IS needed and helpful. Fallen protectors and dark shaman come to mind first.

    Additionally, another factor to consider is luck with gear. As I posted earlier, my luck with daggers has been terrible. Combat offered a way out with better weapons. I think given an AoC and all other things being equal, from a progression standpoint, the best spec is the one you have the best weapons available for. If you have a choice at the same ilvl, assassination may win out for a lot of fights (certainly the potent execute is important on quite a few), but I really don't see there being a WRONG answer this tier.
    Sure dark shamans (assuming you tank them together) and fallen protectors are good BF fights because all targets are similar priority, I'm not disputing that. What I am questioning is how many fights actually display that kind of behavior. Obviously gear is an important factor and given different gearing rates I agree that both specs are quite viable I'm just trying to think about where cleave is really a plus in the combat column vs. a wash all around.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    That is a good point, but unless I'm mistaken, BF is still a pretty 'efficient' AE by which I mean low loss of damage on primary target. I'm pretty sure something like a WW monk looses more single target damage spamming their spinning kick than we do with BF. Now if you are really only using 100% incidental cleaves and multi dotting to kill everything but shaman / bonecrushers, I can see your point. But for my raid, that isn't happening (semi-hc, got 13/13 but fairly late) because its nearly impossible to get our dps to not AE when some one else is already AE'ing. If you help BF down the little ones, you also help force people back to single target faster when they are gone.
    BF is about a 10% dps loss on the primary target. I'd argue the monk shouldn't be using SCK either, there are plenty of classes that have incidental AoE (dks) or have multidotting strategies that are dps neutral to dps positive on the primary target who should be responsible for cleaning up the low priority adds. Certainly if people are going to AoE regardless then yeah helping them AoE things down to get them back on primary targets faster but that is a decidedly non-optimal strategy in general and if Galakras was a more difficult fight then it would probably be less of an issue because people would focus more on strategy and less on padding.
    Last edited by fierydemise; 2013-09-20 at 06:26 PM.
    Fierydemise
    The Horsemen-US 25 (25 man). 9 Hours per Week.
    Rogue Chat-Blogging about Rogue PvE and Theorycrafting (Twitter)

  18. #18
    Based God decided to bestow his blessing on me and I got an AoC from the Flex raid my guild did last night. So now I'm obliged, even with no new weapons in sight, to try Combat.

    My first impressions from beating up a target dummy for a few minutes:

    - There's no noticeable DPS difference between my Mastery-focused Mut spec and my Combat spec at similar ilvl.

    - AoC is as much of a DPS boost as theorized.

    - 10k+ Ruptures are a regular reality (if you're snapshotting it correctly).

    - The T15 4P nerf and Sinister Strike cost increase has made Combat's AR/SB energy regen manageable again.

    - All that Ruthlessness does it make it a requirement to ONLY stack to 4 stack of Anticipation. Otherwise, you WILL waste 1 CP because the Ruthlessness CP generated does not convert into an Anticipation stack.

    Things I want to try:

    1. Are there any add-ons that act like Affdots or Combustion Helper, but for Rogues? The idea would be to track how big a Rupture you could get at the moment, and it would flash/glow green when it's a good time to re-apply. I've been able to get the desired add-on with a combination of RoguePowerBars and a Bandit's Guile tracker, but one add-on to do all that work would be cool.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    Things I want to try:

    1. Are there any add-ons that act like Affdots or Combustion Helper, but for Rogues? The idea would be to track how big a Rupture you could get at the moment, and it would flash/glow green when it's a good time to re-apply. I've been able to get the desired add-on with a combination of RoguePowerBars and a Bandit's Guile tracker, but one add-on to do all that work would be cool.
    You can probably do it via weakauras custom functions, or write a module for affdots such as the boomkin one. There's none already developed though, mostly because clipping isn't worthwhile in the majority of cases for us.
    Fluorescent - Fluo - currently retired, playing other stuff

    i5-4670k @ 4.5 / Thermalright Silver Arrow Extreme / Gigabyte Z87X-D3H / 8GB DDR3-1600 RAM / Gigabyte GTX 760

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    BF is about a 10% dps loss on the primary target. I'd argue the monk shouldn't be using SCK either, there are plenty of classes that have incidental AoE (dks) or have multidotting strategies that are dps neutral to dps positive on the primary target who should be responsible for cleaning up the low priority adds. Certainly if people are going to AoE regardless then yeah helping them AoE things down to get them back on primary targets faster but that is a decidedly non-optimal strategy in general and if Galakras was a more difficult fight then it would probably be less of an issue because people would focus more on strategy and less on padding.
    I definitely see your point, but unless all of the other dps do focus more on strategy and less on padding, you might as well BF to finish them off faster and get everyone back to single target. Maybe the adds are tuned really tightly on heroic and requires a lot of single target focus to down the important ones?

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