Snowden Leaks To Reveal NSA's 'Central Role In The US Assassination Program'

[Machismo]

If raids were carried out in violation of any agreement that's on the white house who approves them and JSOC who runs them. The NSA providing intell is them doing their job.

That is unless the NSA is aware of the entire operation. It does not seem logical that they would be collecting intelligence on a target, and not have any specific details regarding them, especially since the main point of contention would be the country in which the target was located. Of course, all this is basically moot, as they can just classify anything that makes them look bad, and have the Attorney General just sign off on anything that is illegal. The government can say what they are doing is legitimate, and the people have no real legal recourse to question or stand up to them.

[Olo]

That is unless the NSA is aware of the entire operation. It does not seem logical that they would be collecting intelligence on a target, and not have any specific details regarding them, especially since the main point of contention would be the country in which the target was located. Of course, all this is basically moot, as they can just classify anything that makes them look bad, and have the Attorney General just sign off on anything that is illegal. The government can say what they are doing is legitimate, and the people have no real legal recourse to question or stand up to them.

The NSA has carte blanche to collect foreign SIGNIT. The NSA providing intell to JSOC to assist on a white house approved op is them doing their job. Period.

Next thing you're gonna tell me is NGA is crossing the line by providing GEOINT

[Grizzly Willy]

Sounds like a good thing.

Yep. I'm glad that the truth is getting out there.

[Tierbook]

Yep. I'm glad that the truth is getting out there.

i'm not the truth of government secrets is hardly something that the people of said country want to be widely known. A transparent government is a dieing government

[Machismo]

The NSA has carte blanche to collect foreign SIGNIT. The NSA providing intell to JSOC to assist on a white house approved op is them doing their job. Period.

They do not have carte blanche to collect on foreign targets. Also, the real issue would be the legitimacy of the entire operation. If it was say an extraordinary rendition in Italy, then the NSA would be culpable for their role in an obviously questionable act. I'm not saying anyone in the NSA would ever be prosecuted for it, only that what they are doing is not above board. Providing intelligence for an illicit operation, even if approved by the White House, can still be construed as a wrongful action. Just because the AG can wash away all their sins, does not mean that the American public should ignore them. At that point, it's merely the government justifying their actions after the fact.

All this would be fine, IF all their targets were bad guys, but that is not the case. If even one innocent person was targeted/killed because of this, then it marginalizes the entirety of their actions. In that aspect, it is no different than the CIA's extraordinary rendition program. They may have caught lots of bad guys, but they also illegally captured some innocent people, as well as broke treaties with friendly nations. That's not even taking into account the breaking of the Geneva Conventions though their actions. But once again, their sins were washed away by the Attorney General.

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i'm not the truth of government secrets is hardly something that the people of said country want to be widely known. A transparent government is a dieing government

And when a government is not transparent, its citizens will ultimately suffer.

[Catta]

i'm not the truth of government secrets is hardly something that the people of said country want to be widely known. A transparent government is a dieing government

depends on the secrets...

[Tierbook]

They do not have carte blanche to collect on foreign targets. Also, the real issue would be the legitimacy of the entire operation. If it was say an extraordinary rendition in Italy, then the NSA would be culpable for their role in an obviously questionable act. I'm not saying anyone in the NSA would ever be prosecuted for it, only that what they are doing is not above board. Providing intelligence for an illicit operation, even if approved by the White House, can still be construed as a wrongful action. Just because the AG can wash away all their sins, does not mean that the American public should ignore them. At that point, it's merely the government justifying their actions after the fact.

All this would be fine, IF all their targets were bad guys, but that is not the case. If even one innocent person was targeted/killed because of this, then it marginalizes the entirety of their actions. In that aspect, it is no different than the CIA's extraordinary rendition program. They may have caught lots of bad guys, but they also illegally captured some innocent people, as well as broke treaties with friendly nations. That's not even taking into account the breaking of the Geneva Conventions though their actions. But once again, their sins were washed away by the Attorney General.

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And when a government is not transparent, its citizens will ultimately suffer.

when a government falls apart due to international pressure the people suffer more, i mean look at Russia the world hates it just by doing their normal daily activities, you know arresting greenpeace guys harboring fugitives the normal stuff, if we knew as much about Russia as Snowden and Manning released about the US Putin would probably be kicked out of the government

[Evelyn]

So what? The NSA helped JSOC locate all of the murderous insurgents in Iraq during the Second Gulf War and eliminate them with extreme prejudice. Why is this a bad thing at all, and more importantly, how does this make the United States a "mafia country"?

Do you view Edward Snowden as a traitor?

[Tierbook]

Do you view Edward Snowden as a traitor?

yes
/10 char

[Machismo]

when a government falls apart due to international pressure the people suffer more, i mean look at Russia the world hates it just by doing their normal daily activities, you know arresting greenpeace guys harboring fugitives the normal stuff, if we knew as much about Russia as Snowden and Manning released about the US Putin would probably be kicked out of the government

Most of the time that a society suffers, it is from their own government. Most countries do not invade foreign powers, until they have sufficiently conquered/oppressed their own people. When people gain power, they are willing to do nearly anything to retain that power. That mentality inevitably leads to those in power not trusting the people that they are governing. It is a reactive mentality, hat is then mirrored by the populace. Our society in America no longer trusts the government, because the government has not trusted us for years. There are only three likely outcomes when this occurs: 1) The government continues to strengthen oppression of the populace. 2) The people rebel against the government. 3) The government convinces the people to trust it again, either through transparency, or through deceit.

This cycle is not necessarily a rapid one, it could take hundreds of years to complete.

[Fugus]

yes
/10 char

[Sarcasm]Well most patriots are seen as traitors to the enemy =)[/SARCASM]

But honestly, he is no enemy to the American people, he is closer to a patriot.
He is just revealing the dirty deeds of the traitors of this country. Remember, you don't have to be in some third world country to be one. The worst traitors are those who betray this country from positions of power like the NSA and other such agencies as done.

That is unless you honestly dislike the US Constitution and think they honestly should have free reign to ignore it with impunity. And no, that was not sarcasm.

[Tierbook]

[Sarcasm]Well most patriots are seen as traitors to the enemy =)[/SARCASM]

But honestly, he is no enemy to the American people, he is closer to a patriot.
He is just revealing the dirty deeds of the traitors of this country. Remember, you don't have to be in some third world country to be one. The worst traitors are those who betray this country from positions of power like the NSA and other such agencies as done.

That is unless you honestly dislike the US Constitution and think they honestly should have free reign to ignore it with impunity. And no, that was not sarcasm.

It wasn't sarcasm? It's hard to tell over the extremes to which its taken, he's either a patriot or i hate the constitution those are the only ways you see this as being. I see this as a guy leaked information that was being used by the government for a less annoying reason than its used by google and then ran away to Russia to escape punishment

[artemishunter1]

What makes you so sure they won't use these techniques against your own? Don't be so ignorant.

Maybe because such agencies always existed since the start of revolution wars. How the hell do you think we found british spys during the war?

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[Sarcasm]Well most patriots are seen as traitors to the enemy =)[/SARCASM]

But honestly, he is no enemy to the American people, he is closer to a patriot.
He is just revealing the dirty deeds of the traitors of this country. Remember, you don't have to be in some third world country to be one. The worst traitors are those who betray this country from positions of power like the NSA and other such agencies as done.

That is unless you honestly dislike the US Constitution and think they honestly should have free reign to ignore it with impunity. And no, that was not sarcasm.

He is worse. He is either deep cover spy or an Idealist. Most likely the last one. World however, does not move through idealism. Even YOU his supporter has to admit that.

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Most of the time that a society suffers, it is from their own government. Most countries do not invade foreign powers, until they have sufficiently conquered/oppressed their own people. When people gain power, they are willing to do nearly anything to retain that power. That mentality inevitably leads to those in power not trusting the people that they are governing. It is a reactive mentality, hat is then mirrored by the populace. Our society in America no longer trusts the government, because the government has not trusted us for years. There are only three likely outcomes when this occurs: 1) The government continues to strengthen oppression of the populace. 2) The people rebel against the government. 3) The government convinces the people to trust it again, either through transparency, or through deceit.

This cycle is not necessarily a rapid one, it could take hundreds of years to complete.

True. To be fair, we have given ample reason for gov't not to trust us. Our own morality is "as long as I am not directly responsible, I am good". That does not give any people to trust other people. Not to mention, Atomic bomb secrets did not leak out on their own.

[Templar 331]

The CIA has had hit teams for decades.

[artemishunter1]

They do not have carte blanche to collect on foreign targets. Also, the real issue would be the legitimacy of the entire operation. If it was say an extraordinary rendition in Italy, then the NSA would be culpable for their role in an obviously questionable act. I'm not saying anyone in the NSA would ever be prosecuted for it, only that what they are doing is not above board. Providing intelligence for an illicit operation, even if approved by the White House, can still be construed as a wrongful action. Just because the AG can wash away all their sins, does not mean that the American public should ignore them. At that point, it's merely the government justifying their actions after the fact.

All this would be fine, IF all their targets were bad guys, but that is not the case. If even one innocent person was targeted/killed because of this, then it marginalizes the entirety of their actions. In that aspect, it is no different than the CIA's extraordinary rendition program. They may have caught lots of bad guys, but they also illegally captured some innocent people, as well as broke treaties with friendly nations. That's not even taking into account the breaking of the Geneva Conventions though their actions. But once again, their sins were washed away by the Attorney General.

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And when a government is not transparent, its citizens will ultimately suffer.

1)You have to break few eggs to get the rotten ones out. yes, innocent people will suffer sometimes, but far more people suffering and dying is the stake. They are a statistic.
2)ALL NATIONS break treaties if you mean spying on friendly nations. Because today's friend can become tomorrow's enemy (especially when we start fighting for resource in the future).
3)Geneva Convention is a joke. Only the weak have to follow them. Even if we wish it to be different its not going to be. Who is going to make powerful nations like China accoutable? If there is no other power greater to enforce the laws, those laws have no meaning.

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And if they didn't have proper oversight (which Snowden showed that they definitely did not), then they are overstepping their role. If the intelligence is used in violation of treaties or SOFA agreements, then there is obviously not proper oversight. It's not a question of IF we've broken the agreements, as there are documented instances of it. The real question is HOW MANY times it has happened.

They have oversight enough to make sure they are not used against us. But if we break treaties to keep our nation safe, so be it.

[Deleted]

slippery slopes are the best slopes

Especially since all these slippery slope theories kinda turned out to be true!

[Machismo]

1)You have to break few eggs to get the rotten ones out. yes, innocent people will suffer sometimes, but far more people suffering and dying is the stake. They are a statistic.
2)ALL NATIONS break treaties if you mean spying on friendly nations. Because today's friend can become tomorrow's enemy (especially when we start fighting for resource in the future).
3)Geneva Convention is a joke. Only the weak have to follow them. Even if we wish it to be different its not going to be. Who is going to make powerful nations like China accoutable? If there is no other power greater to enforce the laws, those laws have no meaning.

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They have oversight enough to make sure they are not used against us. But if we break treaties to keep our nation safe, so be it.

How do you know they weren't used against us? Aren't the people whose job it is to make sure that people like Snowden cannot steal information, also have the same job to make sure that they are not spying on Americans. Snowden is a criminal, but his credibility in all of this is significantly stronger than that of the NSA. If the oversight fails even once, then it calls into question, and marginalizes the entire program.

We have treaties for a reason. When we invade the sovereign borders of a nation, we are committing an act of war. We have done that to friendly nations in the past decade. Running covert operations within the borders of sovereign nation, with whom we have specific treaties that dictate we will not do such things, we are committing acts of war. Just because we are the most powerful nation on the planet, does not mean we are the most righteous one, nor the best one. The end does not justify the means.

[chrisberb]

Hopefully Snowden will be the next on the list.
I'm so tired of hearing about this leaker/patriot/whistle-blower/traitor..once people stop talking about him, he "leaks" something else, sounds like he's obsessed with seeing his name in a headline.

[Deleted]

So we're bringing up the topic of whether or not Snowden is a traitor or not. He most certainly isn't.
Escaping punishment for trying to reveal corruption, abuse of the system, cover-ups etc is NOT WRONG.

USA should have been in the camera lens the SECOND Snoweden released this info. Not Snowden. I don't fucking understand at all how you can call this guy a traitor for wanting to HELP your country. Some of you say "Woah, he fled to russia, and they're even worse!" But that is not the fucking issue here. The issue is that the country HE LOVES has turned rotten, and he wanted to push things in the right direction. He never said anything about saving Russia from Putin or anyone else. So no, he is NOT a hypocrite. People who see Snowden as a coward and traitor are the biggest flock of sheep I've ever seen in my entire life. They've been mindfucked to the point they actually believe that crushing a lie for the greater good of a nation is a severe crime and should be punished.

And about the fact that he released a batch of info (or if it was Manning, don't recall) that could hurt US spies or agents, it's an entirely different topic. Had the US not lied and done the things they felt compelled to leak, nothing would have happened in the first place.
It's like if your friend cheats on another friend of yours and you come clean about it, and your cheating friend gets mad at you because everybody in this picture knows that he's an asshole. He wouldn't be in said situation if he hadn't been an asshole. Stop focusing on the wrong side here.

Snowden, PLEASE leak everything you fucking got. It's for the greater good in the long run. Get the fucking scumbags off of their power driven high horses.

[Evelyn]

Hopefully Snowden will be the next on the list.
I'm so tired of hearing about this leaker/patriot/whistle-blower/traitor..once people stop talking about him, he "leaks" something else, sounds like he's obsessed with seeing his name in a headline.

The most idiotic post of the day award goes to...

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So we're bringing up the topic of whether or not Snowden is a traitor or not. He most certainly isn't.
Escaping punishment for trying to reveal corruption, abuse of the system, cover-ups etc is NOT WRONG.

USA should have been in the camera lens the SECOND Snoweden released this info. Not Snowden. I don't fucking understand at all how you can call this guy a traitor for wanting to HELP your country. Some of you say "Woah, he fled to russia, and they're even worse!" But that is not the fucking issue here. The issue is that the country HE LOVES has turned rotten, and he wanted to push things in the right direction. He never said anything about saving Russia from Putin or anyone else. So no, he is NOT a hypocrite. People who see Snowden as a coward and traitor are the biggest flock of sheep I've ever seen in my entire life. They've been mindfucked to the point they actually believe that crushing a lie for the greater good of a nation is a severe crime and should be punished.

And about the fact that he released a batch of info (or if it was Manning, don't recall) that could hurt US spies or agents, it's an entirely different topic. Had the US not lied and done the things they felt compelled to leak, nothing would have happened in the first place.
It's like if your friend cheats on another friend of yours and you come clean about it, and your cheating friend gets mad at you because everybody in this picture knows that he's an asshole. He wouldn't be in said situation if he hadn't been an asshole. Stop focusing on the wrong side here.

Snowden, PLEASE leak everything you fucking got. It's for the greater good in the long run. Get the fucking scumbags off of their power driven high horses.

Couldn't agree more.