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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Oh this will be good =)
    Let me guess, another "former world top xx raider"? =) Probably in a top raiding guild right now too? Do tell!

    Oh yeah, i see that Flex mode and LFR clearing really gives you perspective and empirical data to compare, doesn't it =)
    What do I need that "perspective" for? Yea, I was a part of a pre-nerf M'uru kill at a respectable US positioning but that isn't the point. All you need to do is look at how long it took from release of the boss itself, be it K, Algalon, Arthas, or in this instance Garrosh versus the world first kill date. And guess what that data shows you?

    Even the casuals are elitists now...ffs...

  2. #302
    The game is easier than it's ever been in terms of catch-up mechanisms for gearing alts, accessibility, and ease of play. The only thing comparable between TBC and Mists was the rep grind at the start of Mists. As far as the complexity of mechanics and whatnot - I've never considered mechanics to be entirely challenging in and of themselves, as there have always been mods that are just slightly less than auto-pilot for raiders.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by fengosa View Post
    H Garrosh took longer to kill than Mu'ru did
    not when you subtract a week of normal mode raiding, which in itself is a chance to see a watered down version of the fight early. There was no normal M'uru or KJ.

  4. #304
    Game is obviously a lot harder today.

    Inb4 back in TBC the game was "all mysterious" and you figured it all out yourself. Wrong.

    - We had fullly functional DBM in TBC (this was created in pre-TBC).
    - Theorycrafting was just as alive as it is today. Every class had their "best rotation", and finding this information wasn't any harder than it is now.
    - We had detailed bossguides and ability listings all of the place, just like today.

    I started playing WoW 2 weeks after TBC was released, so I can't really say this for sure, but: The only time the "nobody knew what they were doing back then, we had to figure it out for ourselves" was only true in the very beginning of pre-TBC. It was certainly NEVER the case in TBC.


    Now, apart from raids getting much more complex, you must also remeber that the skill of the RAIDING population (not the general wow pop, but the raiders) have increased tremendously. And I'm not just talking about the very top players. While todays top players are much better than the top players from back in the day, the same applies to your average raider. What would we considered a "average-good raider" in TBC, would probably be considered shit and kicked from any guild that does HC raiding today.

    What do I need that "perspective" for? Yea, I was a part of a pre-nerf M'uru kill at a respectable US positioning but that isn't the point. All you need to do is look at how long it took from release of the boss itself, be it K, Algalon, Arthas, or in this instance Garrosh versus the world first kill date. And guess what that data shows you?
    It shows that todays top raiders, are much better players, and probably more important, spend muuuuch more time progressing than the top guilds did back in the day.
    Last edited by ThrashMetalFtw; 2013-10-08 at 02:05 PM.
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  5. #305
    Wait - I can have my cake and eat it too? I can have harder and harder fights that i don't have to spend weeks and weeks of dedicated, boring grinding to? Yet it's still challenging when i do it? Hell yes, and this is the right direction in my opinion.
    That's, from my point of view, the bad direction to go. If grinds, leveling, professions become boring and grind-fest, then try to correct that. Don't remove them from endgame content. If you create something with a really high potential, just improve that, not re-move it to a second place were nobody care...

    It's just my personal opinion, but remove or put in a second place it's not the solution.

    From my point of view:
    People want an expansion that you ding max-level If you talk with one NPC, then equip you pre-Raid gear without doing anything and just focus a really high-skill raid boss. And when you are bored, you've got other secondary things to do that don't affect anything.
    Maybe I'm old, but I want more than this.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Struggle View Post
    Are there seriously people that think MoP raiding is even remotely close to the difficulty of bosses like M'uru and Kil'jaeden when they were first ungated...?
    Mu'ru is just Horridon with three fewer phases. It was harder because it required more tanks? #badraiddesign
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  7. #307
    I think TBC was more gear-checky for a lot of fights. You could sort of avoid mechanics and just power through stuff. That wasn't always the case. Archimonde had a lot of mechanics and so did Vashj. Both were gimmick fights, but also required gear, similar to most MOP fights. I would like to see one or two check fights in every raid tier TBH. Maybe not quite Patchwerk style, but pretty close. Brutallus was a good check fight because you still had to swap tanks and stack in certain places, but you didn't have to dance around the room and avoid 4 different AoEs. I like those fights every now and then.

  8. #308
    Game was harder overall in TBC, like dungeons, heroics, questing, and such.

    The only hard part in Pandaria, is the raiding, and nothing else. Everything else is just dumbed down for people who can't seem to complete shit.

  9. #309
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    For every more complicated element there are more streamlined and well communicated elements. People confuse refinement of the game and its core systems to be 'dumbing down' which is a fallacy.

    The indiviudal difficulty in this game comes in two varieties: Combat and Time

    Arguably there are less time sinks than there used to be, but this wasn't a hurdle of skill merely of investment. You can say that maybe some things are watered down, but not 'dumbed' down. Combat on the other hand is more complex than it has ever been. From single mobs in the open world to raid encounters, every single aspect of the game is more refined and heightened compared to each expansion before it.

    I think people are forgetting that the only mechanics we had for mobs in the game were to interrupt annnnd that's it. Now mobs while questing have abilities that one shot you, requiring kiting or moving out of specific shaped areas. They also put complicated debuffs on you (like poison frogs and whatnot), and generally require more skill than anything ever has.

    We have things like Brawler's Guild, Proving Grounds, and Rares that require advanced levels of play that people typically only displayed in high end raids. To not admit that the game has gotten more complex and the playerbase has rapidly evolved to make up for it would be outright lying.
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-10-08 at 03:14 PM.
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  10. #310
    I would definitely say it has. Many of the TBC and Vanilla wow bosses had mechanics similar to those in LFR just all the gear and fights were tweeked in such a way were it was either a DPS or a resist check. People are just expected to do and know more now. There is an unspoken meta that is just sort of assumed by the dev team. They know we have mods like DBM and dot timers and cool down counters ect. They know there are people that do extensive math to figure out optimum spec gear glyph ect. Before all they assumed was that 25 or 40 people were gonna show up and they would probably just have vent if they were hardcore.

    While some people do not feel the need for these mods and don't run with them. Blizz has better numbers then us they know how many up us are running these UI tweeks and apparently its enough to warrent building the game around it.

  11. #311
    Mechagnome
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    raids harder

    rest drool worthy

  12. #312
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    That's, from my point of view, the bad direction to go. If grinds, leveling, professions become boring and grind-fest, then try to correct that. Don't remove them from endgame content. If you create something with a really high potential, just improve that, not re-move it to a second place were nobody care...

    It's just my personal opinion, but remove or put in a second place it's not the solution.

    From my point of view:
    People want an expansion that you ding max-level If you talk with one NPC, then equip you pre-Raid gear without doing anything and just focus a really high-skill raid boss. And when you are bored, you've got other secondary things to do that don't affect anything.
    Maybe I'm old, but I want more than this.
    That's severely over-simplified, and not what i was suggesting at all. MoP got it right for a lot of things, there was a good amount of time invested in lvling, and then roughly the same amount of time invested again into gearing completely from rep rewards and dungeon drops. After that u were set for raiding. It's not excessive (yet still people moaned and bitched about "daily grinds"...lol get real it was nothing in comparison to previous expansions), yet it still required some work outside of raids. Much better than in TBC, where u had to EXCESSIVELY farm dungeons to even get into heroic modes, then farm those for those drops, that you needed to be able to do T4, which you had to clear to do T5, which you had....you know what, just check that nice TBC progression graph, it floats around on the interwebz

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Struggle View Post
    What do I need that "perspective" for? Yea, I was a part of a pre-nerf M'uru kill at a respectable US positioning but that isn't the point. All you need to do is look at how long it took from release of the boss itself, be it K, Algalon, Arthas, or in this instance Garrosh versus the world first kill date. And guess what that data shows you?

    Even the casuals are elitists now...ffs...
    Comparing the time it took until a boss was down with a COMPLETELY different time in the game, when preparation and game mechanics all were slower and more sluggish? Plus the comparison comes from someone who hasn't experienced any real kind of heroic or hardmode progression in years? Yeah, why would anyone complain about that when you present your opinion as obvious, elitist fact that anyone else would be stupid and noobish to doubt?

    Go play heroic modes now, and get some progress there. Not to prove anything, just so you can actually compare based on your experience, and not from hearsay and watching youtube videos and loling at how fast the diaper raiders got their world firsts...

  13. #313
    Just about every part of the game is much much easier now. Heroics are easier IMO than normal modes were back in TBC, questing is VERY easy, you can go from 1 to 90 and never ask for help from anyone for anything - hell some classes can solo dungeons lol. Only part that may or may not be more challenging is heroic modes, and it's only certain bosses (first 8 in SoO are fairly easy for example). Keep in mind BC didn't have an easy mode where you can go to, to learn the mechanics for a fight too, overall I'd say BC required much more skill.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    For every more complicated element there are more streamlined and well communicated elements. People confuse refinement of the game and its core systems to be 'dumbing down' which is a fallacy.
    When most of that so-called refinement effectively takes decision making processes out of the hands of the player, dumbing down is an entirely accurate descriptor.

    The indiviudal difficulty in this game comes in two varieties: Combat and Time
    Whew! At least one other person gets the notion that time investment is a factor in difficulty.
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  15. #315
    I think the bosses themselves have more difficult mechanics, but on the other hand the preperation is easier/less time consuming and the arsenal of abilities a single character has now is a lot more versatile and powerful than in BC. Nearly every spec has some damage mitigation, blink, raid CDs, movement speed, slow, interrupt, stun, selfheal/heal etc.
    Also some (quite annoying I must say) mechanics like watching your threat/mana as DPS have been simplified.

  16. #316
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    When most of that so-called refinement effectively takes decision making processes out of the hands of the player, dumbing down is an entirely accurate descriptor.
    I was talking about interface changes, accesibility, etc. Not talent trees. So I agree. Though I will note that some changes (which I'm assuming you don't like) are better for the game and some original ideas(which I'm assuming you like) are arbitrary choices. It's kinda a wash really.

    Just depends on if you're just talking about talent trees or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Whew! At least one other person gets the notion that time investment is a factor in difficulty.
    Can't tell if serious...
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-10-08 at 06:05 PM.
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  17. #317
    Bloodsail Admiral Memory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by h4rr0d View Post
    I know this is not TBC, but even in WOTLK fights looked very simple compared to today's standards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOBO1bVRC-c
    Sarth 3d was considered very difficult when it was current content and from that POV it looks almost like the huhuran vid someone posted in another thread recently
    Granted that Sartharion 3D 25 was never considered very difficult and that we are talking about Sartharion 3D 10, on what basis or source of information are you claiming it was not? By watching a video on youtube?

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post

    Can't tell if serious...
    Absolutely serious.
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  19. #319
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Absolutely serious.
    Ok, best to be safe as we all argue with eachother all over the place. Finding common ground is awkward, but delightful. I'm not sure why someone wouldn't agree that time is one of the challenges set in any game, but specifically MMOs. I mean it's not very difficult skill wise to go get the Insane title, but you don't see everyone walking around with it.

    Same with rep grinds and whatnot. I'm awful at time challenges as I really don't have the proper dedication to get those things. I like that they exist though, because it gives me something to work towards when I'm feeling like it. It would be pretty boring if the only hurdle to get over was a skill based one. I like the balance WoW has always had in that respect.
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  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Memory View Post
    Granted that Sartharion 3D 25 was never considered very difficult and that we are talking about Sartharion 3D 10, on what basis or source of information are you claiming it was not? By watching a video on youtube?
    Yeah, watching a video doesn't really tell you much about the gear tuning, which many people here are ignoring.
    Example. Kael'Thas p2 wasn't that hard in theory. Just aoe down all the weapons. But it was tuned in such a way that unless your dps was really really good, killing enough of them is really really hard. Or Brutallus. Didn't have any fancy mechanics beyond regularly just taking the tank from 100% to dead in a second or two.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And god almighty but they've really butchered the low level content's difficulty. I doubt its even possible to be killed by questmobs anymore, and we've taken to 2 manning the dungeons because its far too dull and speedy with a full group compared to the old days.

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