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  1. #321
    The hardest heroic mode bosses shit all over most tBC bosses including M'uru.

    The average heroic mode boss is comparable to or easier than the average 25 man boss in tBC in terms of coordination required.
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  2. #322
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Now if only they were difficult for warlocks/hunters/other mobile ranged
    a few of the mobs are casters with 100-150k pyroblasts, contending with them adds a facet of difficulty to ranged classes. Pet classes on the other hand... well, just have AoEs nuke pets like rare mobs aoe xD
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  3. #323
    Bloodsail Admiral Memory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    Or Brutallus. Didn't have any fancy mechanics beyond regularly just taking the tank from 100% to dead in a second or two.
    Which reminds me that I still have some data from Brutallus parses. Here's one, cleared of names. Gives a better idea than youtube video. And I'd like to point out that Brutallus, together with Kalecgos, was not regarded as particularly difficult at all, beside being a gear check. Still he did this:

    21:21'24.659 tank-warrior is afflicted by Stomp
    [...]
    21:21'28.669 priest-1's Greater Heal heals tank-warrior for 6150
    21:21'29.119 paladin-1's Holy Light heals damage-dealer-1 (burn) for 3903
    21:21'29.466 Brutallus's Swing hits tank-warrior for 10523 Physical
    21:21'29.466 Brutallus's Swing hits tank-warrior for 4777 Physical (479 blocked)
    21:21'29.542 priest-2's Greater Heal heals tank-warrior for 6129
    21:21'29.884 shaman-2's Chain Heal heals damage-dealer-2 (ms) for 824
    21:21'29.884 shaman-2's Chain Heal heals damage-dealer-3 (ms) for 3160
    21:21'29.884 shaman-2's Chain Heal heals tank-warrior for 3518
    21:21'30.320 paladin-2's Holy Light heals tank-warrior for 5460
    21:21'30.320 shaman-2's Chain Heal heals heals damage-dealer-2 (ms) for 921
    21:21'30.320 shaman-2's Chain Heal heals tank-warrior for 2018
    21:21'30.320 shaman-2's Chain Heal heals heals damage-dealer-4 (ms) for 4641
    21:21'30.320 priest-3's Circle of Healing heals heals damage-dealer-5 (ms) for 1001
    21:21'30.320 priest-3's Circle of Healing heals heals damage-dealer-4 (ms) for 1251
    21:21'30.320 priest-3's Circle of Healing heals heals damage-dealer-3 (ms) for 1259
    21:21'30.320 priest-3's Circle of Healing heals heals damage-dealer-6 (ms) for 1238
    21:21'30.547 Brutallus's Swing hits tank-warrior for 11202 Physical
    21:21'30.547 Brutallus's Swing hits tank-warrior for 4854 Physical (479 blocked)
    21:21'31.164 paladin-1's Holy Light heals damage-dealer-1 (burn) for 3895
    21:21'31.465 Brutallus's Swing hits tank-warrior for 5492 Physical (479 blocked)
    21:21'31.465 Brutallus's Swing hits tank-warrior for 11408 Physical (479 blocked)
    21:21'32.278 tank-warrior dies

    Six hits in 1.999" (last four are in 0.918").
    The damage taken is:

    10523
    4777
    11202
    4854
    5492
    11408

    No one is avoided. It's 48256 damage taken in two seconds (and roughly 33k is taken in the last 0.9").

    Can't remember exactly how much HP protection warriors had at that point but should be roughly 24k top, raid buffed and including the Tauren racial.
    Last edited by Memory; 2013-10-08 at 07:14 PM.

  4. #324
    Short answer: no. I feel like TBC still held on to a lot of really annoying mechanics both in leveling, grouping, and the toughness of the enemies that we have not seen since then. While the game certainly has content that is "hard" the fact that you can see that content (or at least most of it) and NOT be in a 5 day a week raiding guild means the game is certainly more approachable (if not easier).

  5. #325
    I am Murloc! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    Game is obviously a lot harder today.
    There was (and is) far more to WoW than raiding.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    That's, from my point of view, the bad direction to go. If grinds, leveling, professions become boring and grind-fest, then try to correct that. Don't remove them from endgame content. If you create something with a really high potential, just improve that, not re-move it to a second place were nobody care...

    It's just my personal opinion, but remove or put in a second place it's not the solution.

    From my point of view:
    People want an expansion that you ding max-level If you talk with one NPC, then equip you pre-Raid gear without doing anything and just focus a really high-skill raid boss. And when you are bored, you've got other secondary things to do that don't affect anything.
    Maybe I'm old, but I want more than this.
    You've put your finger on what I think is one of the big drivers behind sub loss: the slow whittling down of the game. Post-BC, whenever Blizzard has run into difficulties keeping a part of the game fun, interesting, or balanced, they've demonstrated a strong tendency towards simplification and removal. The end result is a game that looks the same, but has been gutted.

    Edited to add: Raid bosses are one exception to this, which I suspect is why people are focusing on them so much.

  6. #326
    Herald of the Titans miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    There was (and is) far more to WoW than raiding.

    - - - Updated - - -




    You've put your finger on what I think is one of the big drivers behind sub loss: the slow whittling down of the game. Post-BC, whenever Blizzard has run into difficulties keeping a part of the game fun, interesting, or balanced, they've demonstrated a strong tendency towards simplification and removal. The end result is a game that looks the same, but has been gutted.
    I just don't agree with either of your positions at all. The aspects that were "whittled" away and simplified are largely non-essential, mundane aspects such as reputation farming, professions and pre-raid gearing. For raiders, these are all little tasks, "homework" so to speak, that have little to do with the enjoyment and challenge of the raid itself. So I don't see how these things actually detract from your experience as a raider.

    I've already stated how i think that it's a significant over-simplification, what Belisaurio said. And if you're referring to easier heroics, for example, I point you to Challenge Modes.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    I just don't agree with either of your positions at all. The aspects that were "whittled" away and simplified are largely non-essential, mundane aspects such as reputation farming, professions and pre-raid gearing. For raiders, these are all little tasks, "homework" so to speak, that have little to do with the enjoyment and challenge of the raid itself. So I don't see how these things actually detract from your experience as a raider.

    I've already stated how i think that it's a significant over-simplification, what Belisaurio said. And if you're referring to easier heroics, for example, I point you to Challenge Modes.
    Ah yes. "Sure, 90% of the game is dead easy, but look at this little corner reserved for people who enjoy a challenge, its still there!"
    The fact that you call most of the game "pre-raid gearing" is depressing enough as it is.

  8. #328
    Everyone that thinks that heroics are oh-so-easy now and weren't oh-so-easy in BC didn't have raid gear in BC. If you're smashing through heroics in 8 minutes with your 4 ilvl 550 buddies, you would have been smashing through heroics in 8 minutes with your sunwell-geared buddies back then. The simple difference is that there are a lot more people who have better gear now, and gear trivializes content. If you actually went with a group that needed gear from heroics, they weren't trivial. In MoP, if you remember to a year ago, people occasionally died in some heroic dungeons before they quickly outgeared them.

    From a tank's perspective, raid bossfights are much more involved now than they were in BC. Back then it was mostly throughput (can you push your gear to the highest percentile output), whereas now there are many more abilities to deal with, positioning to be in/move to, and generally much larger areas to fight in. Individual responsibility is at an all-time high, and there are additional duties that classes must do in order to succeed (tanks push decent dps, everyone mitigates damage on adds by stunning/silencing/kiting, some healers dps while healing, and everyone has some raid utility). For comparison, back in BC, it was basically a tank's job to run their rotation (which was figured out to keep threat and that's about it); now all tanks actively mitigate the damage they receive while simultaneously keeping damage up, which involves active decision-making (it's not just their gear + RNG that determines whether they pass/fail).

    I will say that I miss Season Two more than anything about BC (rose colored glasses and all that rot), but I'm not sure the game's become any harder or easier in that regard--I just preferred the way pvp worked out back then (even though it had lots of problems/exploits). That might also be because in BC I was a better-than-average pvp'er, yet since so many people quit pvp since BC and the better players stuck around, I'm probably just average or even below average now.

  9. #329
    Bloodsail Admiral Memory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chibichibiko View Post
    Everyone that thinks that heroics are oh-so-easy now and weren't oh-so-easy in BC didn't have raid gear in BC. If you're smashing through heroics in 8 minutes with your 4 ilvl 550 buddies, you would have been smashing through heroics in 8 minutes with your sunwell-geared buddies back then. The simple difference is that there are a lot more people who have better gear now, and gear trivializes content. If you actually went with a group that needed gear from heroics, they weren't trivial.
    Although I did not try MoP heroic 5 mans on release because I had no interest on buying MoP to being with, this is the same argument I read about WotLK and Cataclysm heroic. It was wrong for both expansions: WotLK and Cataclysm heroics were absolutely trivial compared to BC heroics, at any level of comparable gear. So are you telling me that they erased WotLK and Cataclysm design and went back to BC model of heroics for MoP? Because, from the little I saw by tanking late MoP heroics with pre-raid gear and not-so-good groups, I believe your saying huge bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by chibichibiko View Post
    In MoP, if you remember to a year ago, people occasionally died in some heroic dungeons before they quickly outgeared them.
    Wow, should we be impressed?

  10. #330
    Can't remember exactly how much HP protection warriors had at that point but should be roughly 24k top, raid buffed and including the Tauren racial.
    Parry hasting was a bitch but your healing strat should have compensated. Trick for Brutallus was weaving different speeds of heals and lifebloom. Once a tank had Inspiration, damage was a lot more stable - mitigation counted double - with BiS BT gear and debuffs, damage was high but a formality. 6 healers - 2 paladins spamming Holy Light (~1.8s), 1 priest spamming Flash Heal (I had 1.2s cast time), 1 resto shaman spamming the tank with CH, 1 druid HOTing wherever, lifebloom tank, healing Burn and 1 resto shaman partially assisting on raid and helping on later stages of Burn.



    TL;DR. It was a formality - especially with a bear tank. By 4th kill, it was easy.

  11. #331
    Bloodsail Admiral Memory's Avatar
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    I have that and some other data from parses because they're taken from a discussion that I saved, on how to improve our healing strategy prior to our first kill And of course it was a particularly unlucky string that I highlighted.
    I agree Brutallus became a formality, but I was mostly referring to the kind of things that you don't see from youtube videos.

  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesx View Post
    Parry hasting was a bitch but your healing strat should have compensated.
    When did they remove Parry hasting again?
    I can vaguely remember getting homicidal thoughts when we pugged a raid and some nubs were attacking the boss from the front :P

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by chibichibiko View Post
    Everyone that thinks that heroics are oh-so-easy now and weren't oh-so-easy in BC didn't have raid gear in BC. If you're smashing through heroics in 8 minutes with your 4 ilvl 550 buddies, you would have been smashing through heroics in 8 minutes with your sunwell-geared buddies back then.
    Except in TBC there was no reason for Sunwell geared people to do 5 mans, so they weren't contributing to the problem of faceroll heroics.
    Also, Cataclysm heroics were noticeably harder than Wrath heroics at launch, and stayed harder for longer. TBC heroics were possibly even a bit overtuned, I got gear from Kara before I did most of the 5 mans.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    Except in TBC there was no reason for Sunwell geared people to do 5 mans, so they weren't contributing to the problem of faceroll heroics.
    Also, Cataclysm heroics were noticeably harder than Wrath heroics at launch, and stayed harder for longer. TBC heroics were possibly even a bit overtuned, I got gear from Kara before I did most of the 5 mans.
    Well i had reson wit sunwll gear still run hc dungeons for badges. Since you could buy epick gems for them and sell them. Catalcysm hc dungeonds showed us how real hc dungoned should look like. They were hard and they werent faceroll with bis gear (pre nerf) and also achivements were much much harder then this new MOP joke achivements what can be pretty much most of them done solo. But how it is majority of noobs cried on forums so blizzard dumd their desing on casual lvl again.

  15. #335
    By itself, the game is harder. Wayyyy harder.

    Comparatively to the skill level of the players, it's mostly a joke, aside from a handful of encounters per tier than end up actually challenging for a week or two (until you overgear them basically). I don't feel challenged in the slightest compared to how encounters felt in the past. The class mechanics play a lot in that, as even the simplest of mechanics could be difficult to handle given the limits of the classes back then.

    Basically, my point is that, in the past, encounter difficulty was probably a 4/10, but the top players were something like 2/10. Nowadays, the encounter difficulty might be 10/10, but the top players are a solid 8 or 9/10, so the encounters feel way easier as a result despite being theorically harder.
    Last edited by Mionelol; 2013-10-08 at 11:57 PM.

  16. #336
    Bloodsail Admiral Memory's Avatar
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    We should also say that BC heroic 5-mans had a huge nerf with patch 2.1 (15th of May 2007), same patch that nerfed Karazhan, alchemy, normal dungeons and other things. I'm not even sure how many people who talk of 5-man difficulty did actually experience those heroic 5-mans pre-2.1, but dungeons such as Shattered Halls, Shadow Lab, Old Hillsbrad, Arcatraz, Mana Tombs, Black Morass... they were quite difficult before the nerf, which was four months into the expansion already, and anyway remained between challenging and entertaining for a long while.

    WotLK heroic 5-mans were dumb, plain and simple, and I was doing the meta-achievement on release, even got Gotta go! pre-nerf (2 minutes), started running them within one week of release (time to be 80), so I wasn't exactly ICC geared. I hold that BC level 70 normals were harder than WotLK heroics.
    Blizzard acknowledged the mistake and Cataclysm heroic 5-mans were less of a joke, indeed, even entertaining on some degree, although not on BC level, and didn't last as long (been running Cataclysm heroic within two days of Cataclysm release, so once again I know what I am talking about).

    I am actually curious, if anybody without broken or biased memory could tell me something about the difficulty level of MoP heroic 5-mans upon release, since I wasn't playing then.
    Last edited by Memory; 2013-10-09 at 12:15 AM.

  17. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    By itself, the game is harder. Wayyyy harder.

    Comparatively to the skill level of the players, it's mostly a joke, aside from a handful of encounters per tier than end up actually challenging for a week or two (until you overgear them basically). I don't feel challenged in the slightest compared to how encounters felt in the past. The class mechanics play a lot in that, as even the simplest of mechanics could be difficult to handle given the limits of the classes back then.

    Basically, my point is that, in the past, encounter difficulty was probably a 4/10, but the top players were something like 2/10. Nowadays, the encounter difficulty might be 10/10, but the top players are a solid 8 or 9/10, so the encounters feel way easier as a result despite being theorically harder.

    It's nice to hear an opinion on this from someone in a top guild who's actually qualified to answer.

  18. #338
    TBC was harder in just about every conceivable way. Leveling was harder, grinding professions was harder, (heroic) dungeons were significantly harder and raids were harder. Mind you, many heroic level raid bosses now are certainly more complex now but in TBC there were a lot of logistic hurdles you needed to pass and you really needed specific group comps and stuff like resistance gear, sharpening stones and whatever. Now, as long as you have decent raiders, you can expect to do reasonably well on most bosses. That was not the case back in TBC.

    My guild managed to clear heroic ToT (13/13) prior to 5.4 and we're 13/14 normal SoO atm in 10-man for whatever that is worth. I'd largely agree your average raider has become a lot better. That doesn't take away from the difficulty of TBC content when it was relevant imo however.

    I also wanted to state... I don't necessarily feel it is fair to compare heroic level raid bosses to TBC raid bosses. Back then, you only had normal raids and either you did it or you didn't. Raiding now consists of LFR, Flex, Normal & Heroic. TBC raid bosses were definitely more difficult than LFR, Flex and (largely) normal if we were to make per boss comparisons. Heroic bosses are probably largely more difficult (on a per boss comparison) but saying that "the game has become harder than TBC" because of one (sub) aspect of the game that didn't even exist in TBC for fair comparisons to be made seems like a terrible way of deciding if the game is harder. It's not. Not even close.
    Last edited by xixixviixiiii; 2013-10-09 at 12:26 AM.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    Basically, my point is that, in the past, encounter difficulty was probably a 4/10, but the top players were something like 2/10. Nowadays, the encounter difficulty might be 10/10, but the top players are a solid 8 or 9/10, so the encounters feel way easier as a result despite being theorically harder.
    Agreed, today's players would easily pull 30% dps more out of the 1-2 button rotations from back then and use their personal/raid CDs more often.

    The only reason players from BC look less skilled on video is because their characters have less skills that are used frequently, less mobility making them look 'slow', less glowing stuff.
    Last edited by Dangg; 2013-10-09 at 12:24 AM.

  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memory View Post
    I am actually curious, if anybody without broken or biased memory could tell me something about the difficulty level of MoP heroic 5-mans upon release, since I wasn't playing then.
    I dinged 90 rather quickly and got to do heroics before the reset, found some decent guys and just destroyed the HCs. Had most of the achievments within a week of release. It was a huge let down actually, not that I think 5man HCs is where you should look for a challenge, but still a tiny wall to push through would be nice every now and then.
    Don't try to fix what's not broken~

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