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  1. #361
    I've played in a competitive raiding guild since near the end of Molten Core progression. The game is LEAPS ahead more difficult than it used to be with regards to what is required from individuals, leaders, and the group as a whole. There is an infinite amount of truth to the statement that players have become much more prepared and researched than our former selves. It'd be nearly impossible to not have improved just by sheer hours put into the game. But with preparedness and increased skill comes the creation of harder content to challenge it. Take *almost* (I used the word almost here) any fight from MC/BC, scale it up to today's level of HP and outgoing damage and watch it fall over by even the worst of active raiding guilds.

    Vanilla/BC was A LOT of fun. I had some great, if not the greatest, times playing it but it definitely wasn't the hardest of content either.

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  2. #362
    I will say one thing about BC-era PvE. Its not that it was "harder" per se. It was harder if you were using the "wrong" class/spec.

    The design back then still held specific roles for each spec. So if you were a druid that wanted to be the main tank, you were "wrong" and thus it was "harder" for you to do the job because the "right" class/spec (Prot Warrior) was the one for that particular part.

    So if you went into a heroic dungeon as a dps spec that had no cc, you were "wrong". You, as a hybrid, were meant to level up using that dps spec you had (that was the "right" use of the dps spec of hybrids) and then at max level you were to switch to the "right" spec and heal.

    I assure you, going into a heroic dungeon with a Prot Warrior, a druid healer and 3 CC dps wasn´t all that hard. The game started to get rough when you started using the wrong class/spec combos.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    This. Know what you're talking about, or GTFO. It's getting really annoying debating the differences in difficulty with people that act all defensive and whiny, and 3 posts later the truth comes out, that they don't actually have a clue about today's status because they're not playing, or haven't played in ages.
    Ahead of the curve Lei Shen. ilvl 550 Enhancement Shaman main spec. Azjol Nerub USA: Titusx

    What I meant with that list is this: I noticed that most people complaining about how "easy" the game is this days do so on the basis of completely ignoring all challenging content Blizzard has placed in the game.

    If you ignore challenge modes, heroic scenarios, brawlers guild, proving grounds and relevant heroic raiding content... then yes, the other handful of things that are left (PvE side) are pretty easy. So I say, don´t ignore the stuff thats been clearly labeled the "challenging" and then say there is no challenge.

    Thats what the list is meant to point out.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Oh look, how surprising, ANOTHER person not actually playing but spewing acid all over the game. Please, spare us. These threads are just full of guys like you.
    I reactivated my trial last week with my bro, we're starting new characters and going through Azeroth. He hadn't played since TBC, so he noticed the drop in difficulty far more than I did, since I'd played up till 4.3 in Cata.
    If you're saying leveling in the world/dungeons FINALLY gets difficult at level 85, that's fair enough. But that's not something the curious 7 day trial player is going to ever see.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballitomalo View Post
    I will say one thing about BC-era PvE. Its not that it was "harder" per se. It was harder if you were using the "wrong" class/spec.

    The design back then still held specific roles for each spec. So if you were a druid that wanted to be the main tank, you were "wrong" and thus it was "harder" for you to do the job because the "right" class/spec (Prot Warrior) was the one for that particular part.

    So if you went into a heroic dungeon as a dps spec that had no cc, you were "wrong". You, as a hybrid, were meant to level up using that dps spec you had (that was the "right" use of the dps spec of hybrids) and then at max level you were to switch to the "right" spec and heal.

    I assure you, going into a heroic dungeon with a Prot Warrior, a druid healer and 3 CC dps wasn´t all that hard. The game started to get rough when you started using the wrong class/spec combos.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Ahead of the curve Lei Shen. ilvl 550 Enhancement Shaman main spec. Azjol Nerub USA: Titusx

    What I meant with that list is this: I noticed that most people complaining about how "easy" the game is this days do so on the basis of completely ignoring all challenging content Blizzard has placed in the game.

    If you ignore challenge modes, heroic scenarios, brawlers guild, proving grounds and relevant heroic raiding content... then yes, the other handful of things that are left (PvE side) are pretty easy. So I say, don´t ignore the stuff thats been clearly labeled the "challenging" and then say there is no challenge.

    Thats what the list is meant to point out.
    I was directing that challenge at exactly the people you were talking about
    People that haven't actually bothered with the actually challenging content, or aren't even playing.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    I was directing that challenge at exactly the people you were talking about
    People that haven't actually bothered with the actually challenging content, or aren't even playing.
    Oh... hmm... sorry then, you know how the internet is (boxing gloves on 24/7).

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by caballitomalo View Post

    Thats the PvE to-do list if you want to say : WoW is easy. Until then, please stop posting about the subject.
    Its just apples and oranges at this point. MoP apparently keeps all its difficult bits in this segmented, max level only area. And you can avoid the difficulty and still see most of the same stuff. TBC and Vanilla had a lower max difficulty, but it started from level 1 and couldn't be avoided by picking LFR difficulty in raids, etc.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    Its just apples and oranges at this point. MoP apparently keeps all its difficult bits in this segmented, max level only area. And you can avoid the difficulty and still see most of the same stuff. TBC and Vanilla had a lower max difficulty, but it started from level 1 and couldn't be avoided by picking LFR difficulty in raids, etc.
    I dont see your point. To my recollection the hard bits of BC were heroic dungeons (and they were a slaughter house if you didn´t bring at least 2 cc dps clases) and raiding in general. In BC all raiding past Kara was basically what heroic raiding is today (but back then it wasnt as hard as today).

    I think thats what throws so much people off. They see SoO LFR and they try to compare it to Sunwell and conclude that BC was harder. When Blizzard discovered difficulty settings and added that to the game that 1 to 1 comparison became moot. You have to pair them right in order to gain a propper perspective to how hard raiding was back then compared to today.

    As far as pre raid content... doing quests back then wan´t hard at all. I dont know whats the deal with people trying to imply that leveling was harder in BC. If anything Blizzard has gotten so good at developing questing content its now actually fun and interesting and that makes it go by faster. BC questing felt that way to the Vanilla drag and so on in every exp. Questing is just not challeinging imo.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by caballitomalo View Post
    As far as pre raid content... doing quests back then wan´t hard at all. I dont know whats the deal with people trying to imply that leveling was harder in BC. If anything Blizzard has gotten so good at developing questing content its now actually fun and interesting and that makes it go by faster. BC questing felt that way to the Vanilla drag and so on in every exp. Questing is just not challeinging imo.
    Leveling in TBC was like a 3/10 vs the 1/10 it is now. You sometimes needed to stop and eat food, you had to watch for elites, or pulling too many mobs at once. People wiped in 5 mans to something other than pulling the entire instance. That does have a negative impact on my enjoyment of the early content. I'd be surprised if that doesn't put people off the game.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    Leveling in TBC was like a 3/10 vs the 1/10 it is now. You sometimes needed to stop and eat food, you had to watch for elites, or pulling too many mobs at once. People wiped in 5 mans to something other than pulling the entire instance. That does have a negative impact on my enjoyment of the early content. I'd be surprised if that doesn't put people off the game.
    But it's already been proved that it didn't put people off the game... Sub numbers rose all throughout the BC. For someone like me it actually made leveling an actual piece of content and part of the game instead of just something that is in your way from doing max level stuff. The game was based around having leveling as a form of content.

    I'm in no way trying to be subjective with the two sentences, it's very objective. The last two sentences are subjective, just pointing this out before someone goes off on a tangent about what I said.
    Last edited by Tizzlefix; 2013-10-09 at 07:47 PM.
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  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Aang View Post
    But it's already been proved that it didn't put people off the game... Sub numbers rose all throughout the BC. For someone like me it actually made leveling an actual piece of content and part of the game instead of just something that is in your way from doing max level stuff.
    My bad phrasing, I meant that the current supereasy leveling is probably more offputting to newbies than the old mildly challenging TBC model. So we agree

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    My bad phrasing, I meant that the current supereasy leveling is probably more offputting to newbies than the old mildly challenging TBC model. So we agree
    Hehe I guess we do.

    The easy leveling is a putoff for me, I can see how they could have made Cataclysm such a good expansion by making leveling more enjoyable but they made it so fast that the "new" Azeroth isn't something you can really enjoy so to speak. You outlevel zones so fast.
    I'll take the sky any day.

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aang View Post
    Hehe I guess we do.

    The easy leveling is a putoff for me, I can see how they could have made Cataclysm such a good expansion by making leveling more enjoyable but they made it so fast that the "new" Azeroth isn't something you can really enjoy so to speak. You outlevel zones so fast.
    I agree that leveling is very fast and the game has become way easier at lower levels, even up to current content. However that doesn't make it a valid criterium of judging the overall difficulty, because the world in Pandaria is most definitely more challenging than it ever was in TBC.

    Also, Blizzard faces the challenge of allowing players to catch up to the newest content at an acceptable and fun pace. That wouldn't be possible if everything were at the same relative difficulty and pace it was back when the content was current.

  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    I agree that leveling is very fast and the game has become way easier at lower levels, even up to current content. However that doesn't make it a valid criterium of judging the overall difficulty, because the world in Pandaria is most definitely more challenging than it ever was in TBC.

    Also, Blizzard faces the challenge of allowing players to catch up to the newest content at an acceptable and fun pace. That wouldn't be possible if everything were at the same relative difficulty and pace it was back when the content was current.
    Well the way I see it, if a compromise can be made regarding alts then I'd say fuck heirlooms but give them a buff that allows them to get more experience. Honestly heirlooms are part of the reason leveling an alt is just piss easy, just make the extra exp a buff instead of gear instead.
    I'll take the sky any day.

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    the world in Pandaria is most definitely more challenging than it ever was in TBC.
    Doesn't really match my perception. Would you care to elaborate? Again about the supposed super hard rare mobs?

  15. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memory View Post
    Doesn't really match my perception. Would you care to elaborate? Again about the supposed super hard rare mobs?
    Rare's in Vanilla were hard for many people to kill while leveling on their own, even locks and hunters had to play it right for it too work. Many rares were nearly as hard as elites and elites outside of instances weren't really soloable for a warlock or hunter.
    I'll take the sky any day.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Also, Blizzard faces the challenge of allowing players to catch up to the newest content at an acceptable and fun pace. That wouldn't be possible if everything were at the same relative difficulty and pace it was back when the content was current.
    Pace and difficulty are independent attributes though. Just have fewer, more dangerous mobs.

  17. #377
    I never played in BC and i can tell you that this game is not NEARLY as hard as it was in BC. FFS its a joke now compared to wrath and wrath was pretty easy.
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  18. #378
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    Well it really depends.
    Leveling in greens through Pandaria, most of the rares were quite deadly. More specifically, nearly all of them had some form of oneshot mechanic plus interruptable stuff, having to kite, etc etc...you can belittle it as much as you want, but rares in Pandaria are quite challenging in the appropriate gear, for the average gamer.
    Mobs in TBC did little but autohit, you learned to avoid elites on your own and get a group. In Pandaria, most mobs have some kind of unique ability you learn, and Rares become challenging mini encounters.

  19. #379
    People who weren't really in the thick of tbings during vashj/Kt, mother shazz, muru can't really speculate as brute force really isn't applicable in heroic raids

  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironfists View Post
    I never played in BC and i can tell you that this game is not NEARLY as hard as it was in BC. FFS its a joke now compared to wrath and wrath was pretty easy.
    Do i really need to point out the stupidity of that statement?

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