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  1. #61
    I am Murloc! prwraith's Avatar
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    As an aside, I frankly don't think it should be possible to full clear heroic modes in 2 weeks. Regardless of your skill. The gear check should be tight enough that it requires you to farm the previous tier for longer.

    That'd extend the life of the expansion.

    I'm going to catch flak for this, but aside from fine tuning strats, there's no preperation that goes into these raids anymore. There's no getting everyone shadow resist gear for a certain boss, or fire resist gear for this place. There's no, we need to prep for this boss by getting bane weapons, or a certain proc or buff.

    It's just, here's the strat, here's the minimum number you need to pull. Execute. /

  2. #62
    Old God Hyve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mofi View Post
    tbc wasn´t hard it was just time consuming with the resistance gear bullsht and whatnot
    Far too many people forget this. Many people believe that the resistance requirements ended by Classic, and The Burning Crusade added a lot more annoying factors, like certain items which were Best in Slot, requiring a Profession to use.

  3. #63
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Heroic raids ARE way harder than they were in previous expansions, they've managed to top themselves each time so far. Encounter mechanics on heroic modes nowadays are like quantum mechanics compared to simple additions and subtractions in Classic and TBC. TBC people speak fondly of the difficulty back then when it fact it was mostly exclusivity and an insane investment of time, rather than actual complexity in the encounter.

    One exception I would make is Naxxramas Classic - the raid was groundbreaking for it's day, nearly every boss had previously unseen mechanics that often confuddled raids. It was only out a short time before TBC sadly, but it was very much the difficulty too that had only a tiny % of raiding guilds even down a few bosses in there before TBC was out.

    Nowadays the community would cry from the rooftops if there were some fights that were too similar to previous ones and therefore easy (heroic raiding community that is). That's the standard set by Naxx. TBC adhered to it largely, but often repeated very simple elements that you find in encounters to this day (debuff, adds, often encounters had nothing else but autohitting adds and a debuff u had to take the damage from).

    TLR: heroic raids are very much so harder than anything you could play in TBC or before. After that it becomes debatable. LK Heroic and Raggy HC are arguably on the same level of difficulty, for example.

  4. #64
    Yes...but due gear being handed out like free candy I will also say no.The game itself has become a lot harder, but the game also holds your hand the entire way so it becomes shitloads easier.

    The only reason I enjoy raiding a lot less is because I hate killing a boss to go kill it again in a harder mode. A boss should be heroic mode to begin with...at least mechanical wise. They often remove the most fun and difficult mechanic in normal and lower.

    And killing a boss for the second time simply doesn't feel the same as killing the boss for the first time after struggling to down it.

    Quote Originally Posted by VoodooGaming View Post
    Far too many people forget this. Many people believe that the resistance requirements ended by Classic, and The Burning Crusade added a lot more annoying factors, like certain items which were Best in Slot, requiring a Profession to use.
    It wasn't time consuming nor expensive. Were those very few rare bosses annoying to get resistance gear for? That depends from person to person, I liked it when everyone had to do it like with Mother in BT. When only tanks or warlock/mage had to get it, it becomes a lame mechanic.

    I never understood where people get the time consuming part..
    Last edited by Sarac; 2013-10-06 at 09:48 AM.

  5. #65
    If you took away Youtube, WoWhead and 90% of the add-ons that didn't even exist at the time, then put today's players in SSC, TK, BT, etc you could forget about any of them getting past the 2nd bosses. The player base isn't nearly as skilled as it was. Not even close. Tanking has been dumbed down. Healing has been dumbed down. Encounter guides are out before anything even goes live. Today's tanks and healers couldn't even function in that environment. Hitting shit on cooldown would never fly back then. You'd oom 3 minutes into the encounter. Way too cerebral for today's crowd.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by tiporispit View Post
    If you took away Youtube, WoWhead and 90% of the add-ons that didn't even exist at the time, then put today's players in SSC, TK, BT, etc you could forget about any of them getting past the 2nd bosses. The player base isn't nearly as skilled as it was. Not even close. Tanking has been dumbed down. Healing has been dumbed down. Encounter guides are out before anything even goes live. Today's tanks and healers couldn't even function in that environment. Hitting shit on cooldown would never fly back then. You'd oom 3 minutes into the encounter. Way too cerebral for today's crowd.
    Having to manage mana as a caster dps...most dps would break down in tears nowadays if they would have to learn how to manage mana.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by cits View Post
    - - - Updated - - -

    Nope. It wasnt hard because players were bad. The mobs did a lot of damage and you had to use massive CC, and if you fail you probably wipe. If you travel time the MoP players would die in the first pull trying to AoE the first room.
    And you actually had to learn your class, what you could and couldn't do. Plan ahead and feel the power of your character. There were bad players but not nearly as many as today, because in todays world you succeed by failing (afk, white hitting, auto follow, free epics, free loot).

    Shadow Labs Mind control boss, and add rooms. Shattered Halls speeding...

    Arcatraz...hoooly

    Nightmares! But fun, played a spriest and got to do some mind controlling for extra power (What is mind control these days?)

  8. #68
    Ranks higher than 1000 aren't comparable imo. Rank 6000 is still normal mode in SoO so far, so they haven't even entered the hardest difficulty setting yet. The 1600 ranked guild before did enter the hardest difficulty setting.

    The game is a LOT harder now considering most people don't even make it to the hardest difficulty setting where as you could easily get to BT/MH (and eventually Sunwell) if you spent a week or two gearing. Now you actually have to beat a semi-hard encounter (Garrosh. Probably the hardest normal mode fight I've played so far, harder than many ToT heroics if you don't take gear into account) to get there. Beating T5 to get to T6 wasn't hard at all once a few guilds had started pushing there, at least not if you were T6 material.

    The hardest part about raiding then was actually getting to the raid. Things were just overtuned back then. You waited a week to get slightly better gear, then you tried again.

    Quote Originally Posted by urasim View Post
    The game has gotten much, much easier. Going from hour-long-wipe-fest heroic 5 mans in BC, to 15 minute roll-your-face-on-keyboard-easy heroic 5 mans in the last 3 expansions. Normal raids in BC were like heroic raids nowadays.

    Not saying that getting easier is worse for the the game or anyone playing it.

    I don't really know what I ranked world wide, but server I was always number one by a large margin.
    You're so full of it. There's no way you were server #1 with those opinions unless you were carried incredibly hard. What's your progress today?

    Comparing 5mans now to 5mans then is also rediculous. Do you actually consider challenge modes to be easier than TBC heroics? Because if you're going to compare 5man to 5man, use the highest difficulty settings, not the highest vs the middle to make an argument to your favor. I played my friends warrior, did SHIT dps with it since I hadn't touched warriors before, but we still made it very easily. This was on a char that didn't raid, mind you.

    Raids back then were a joke, there were very few mechanics and the reason you wiped was because there was some idiot standing in fire or healers not being able to heal properly.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  9. #69
    mop is much harder. the mechanics of the tbc bosses were okay and all, but it's nothing compared to heroic lei shen or garrosh (who I assume is very hard) Even Ragnaros hc in firelands, yogg saron +0, lk hero, firefighter in the beginning..all these bosses have phase after phase of which every single one is harder than a complete boss in tbc. I only made it to the start of the sunwell, so I cant speak of KJ or Muru who all say was incredibly hard, but I guess, since I know the mechanics, M'uru was merely a gearcheck. 5 mans are easier ofcourse. I'll always remember going on voice with pugs for magisters terrace : D
    I have forgotten more than you will ever know..

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Oppressionix805 View Post
    gearing up for heroics in TBC was crappy, not much info was out... and ppl did not ever EVER look up boss fights for heroics they would go in thinking they could just figure it out, some heroics would just end up leaving before the first boss, the guilds that took the time to do everything right were the few that got to see illidan and kil jaeden, which not many guilds got to down during there pre nerf phase, my guild were in karazhan the majority of TBC because we had people not willing to pull in the time and effort to gear correctly and learn the fights, we had Karazhan on farm status mined you, but we kept having to rotate people in and out because tanks would not show and what not, the only difficult thing about TBC was having badies pull you down because they don't know how to gear correctly or play there class correctly
    Thats a blatant lie. WoWHead haD the same info that it have now. So you only did the Mogu’Shan Palace of the BC and you feel that you can talk about the raiding in TBC?? LoL.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
    yes, the game has become much harder, and raid encounters have become a lot less forgiving, However Players skill is much much higher these days, even the average casual player, if transported back to TRB and having the same gear would have little to no problems picking up the mechanics that many people struggled to grasp back then.
    What the hell am i reading.

    Half the players dont even know what the hell their class does. No concept of CC, Rogues not giving tricks, hunters not MDing (Blizz vaporised Threat mechanics to who cares), AOE everything down is real skill yeah, i can press chain lightning 30 times too.

    BTW, cc back then was on pull. Not Oh i'm going to CC then wait 10 seconds for the tank to pull

    Quote Originally Posted by Binki View Post
    Raiding is probably a bit more difficult, but the rest of game is complete faceroll compared to TBC.

    Leveling can be (and has been) done naked. 5 man leveling dungeons are so easy even without heirlooms that its just stupid and boring. 5 man heroic dungeons are easier than 5 deadmines used to be.

    Game difficulty used to be somewhat linear, now its like this:
    - levels 0-85: 0/10
    - levels 85-90: 1/10
    - "heroic" max level dungeons: 1/10
    - Raiding: 10/10

    There is no difficulty curve any more. There are no more learning opportunities for players. Game is way too easy until you reach proper raiding and then it jumps directly to hard.
    Yep. And you get it at level 90 when you cant even find someone on trade who isin't so dumb they don't even know whats going on in a 3dps H Scenario (I think i've made this comparison like 5 times today)

    I wouldn't even say "HARD" You go through LFR babby mode, then Flex which is easier/harder depending on your social skills (better groups and friends to carry)

    And 85-90 is -1/10 because you can 1 button heal or tank the LFG system.

    Quote Originally Posted by cits View Post
    Thats a blatant lie. WoWHead haD the same info that it have now. So you only did the Mogu’Shan Palace of the BC and you feel that you can talk about the raiding in TBC?? LoL.

    Not only that, but there was Thottbot as well. I used that in Vanilla and it still moved over to Wowhead, before i even got to Netherstorm it was rampant with datamining information.
    Last edited by Daffan; 2013-10-06 at 09:57 AM.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Akkoron View Post
    mop is much harder. the mechanics of the tbc bosses were okay and all, but it's nothing compared to heroic lei shen or garrosh (who I assume is very hard) Even Ragnaros hc in firelands, yogg saron +0, lk hero, firefighter in the beginning..all these bosses have phase after phase of which every single one is harder than a complete boss in tbc. I only made it to the start of the sunwell, so I cant speak of KJ or Muru who all say was incredibly hard, but I guess, since I know the mechanics, M'uru was merely a gearcheck. 5 mans are easier ofcourse. I'll always remember going on voice with pugs for magisters terrace : D
    Complex != Hard.

  13. #73
    5 mans of tbc > now

    raids of tbc <<<<< now

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cits View Post
    Complex != Hard.
    Well, you got me there. That's true. But i have to say I wiped excessively on ragnaros hc and lk, while kalecgos or brutallus were just..standing in the way. Or even sartharion 25 +3 was more time consuming for me than illidan back then
    I have forgotten more than you will ever know..

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    Ranks higher than 1000 aren't comparable imo. Rank 6000 is still normal mode in SoO so far, so they haven't even entered the hardest difficulty setting yet. The 1600 ranked guild before did enter the hardest difficulty setting.

    The game is a LOT harder now considering most people don't even make it to the hardest difficulty setting where as you could easily get to BT/MH (and eventually Sunwell) if you spent a week or two gearing. Now you actually have to beat a semi-hard encounter (Garrosh. Probably the hardest normal mode fight I've played so far, harder than many ToT heroics if you don't take gear into account) to get there. Beating T5 to get to T6 wasn't hard at all once a few guilds had started pushing there, at least not if you were T6 material.

    The hardest part about raiding then was actually getting to the raid. Things were just overtuned back then. You waited a week to get slightly better gear, then you tried again.



    You're so full of it. There's no way you were server #1 with those opinions unless you were carried incredibly hard. What's your progress today?

    Comparing 5mans now to 5mans then is also rediculous. Do you actually consider challenge modes to be easier than TBC heroics? Because if you're going to compare 5man to 5man, use the highest difficulty settings, not the highest vs the middle to make an argument to your favor. I played my friends warrior, did SHIT dps with it since I hadn't touched warriors before, but we still made it very easily. This was on a char that didn't raid, mind you.

    Raids back then were a joke, there were very few mechanics and the reason you wiped was because there was some idiot standing in fire or healers not being able to heal properly.
    I'd say challenge modes are on part with TBC heroics...and then I'm obviously not talking about Slave Pens or the lower end heroics. :P Challenge modes were a fun design, but the reward isn't enough to draw me in. Prob because I play a shaman and the set sucks ass for a shaman. I'd have jumped right in as a paladin for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akkoron View Post
    5 mans of tbc > now

    raids of tbc <<<<< now

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well, you got me there. That's true. But i have to say I wiped excessively on ragnaros hc and lk, while kalecgos or brutallus were just..standing in the way. Or even sartharion 25 +3 was more time consuming for me than illidan back then

    Such simple mechanics but the difficulty ramped up for every second the figh went on longer. Was a perfect boss for a new expansion imo, great learning curve on this one.
    Last edited by Sarac; 2013-10-06 at 09:58 AM.

  15. #75
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    I'd say the mechanics (in general) have got harder, but the gear checks and requirements have become more relaxed.

    So many times in Vanilla/TBC I remember wiping because quite simply either our tank, healer or DPS didn't have good enough gear so we had to keep hitting our heads against it until we got everything perfect or had to wipe for a couple weeks until our raid got better gear.

    Now raiding seems to be more about the execution of the boss as opposed to gear checks (in general).

    I do feel like the player base is more skilled in general now too, I guess they're used to mechanics more now.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    TBC had a major issue - a lack of tanks.
    Not really, for 5man PUGs yea sure, but for raiding guilds there were way more tanks than needed.

    Edit: at least on my realm.
    Last edited by Caelia; 2013-10-06 at 10:01 AM.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Aang View Post
    Hehe... No the content is easier, try playing on any private server that is Vanilla or BC, 5 mans are even harder and do require you to think about pulls sometimes. Really content is actually harder back in Vanilla and BC, you couldn't steamroll through shit.
    You had to do all of that in the cata heroics and challenge modes require cordination btw.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  18. #78
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    It's very amusing to see how many people claim "u had to cc" was some form of mental challenge...it's a click of a button. If you failed at that, then yes TBC was surely hard for you. That was about the pinnacle of difficulty back then, pull the mobs out of rooms and "omg cc!". There was nothing like the complex movement mechanics u often get now, or overlapping, annoying abilities u have to react to in split seconds.

    Yes the game was hard back then, because people were BAD for the most part. Players that nowadays end up in LFR, you would often see in low-mid range raids in Classic and TBC - that's how bad. As impressively demontrated by all the "u had to use Polymorph man, it was badass".

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Aang View Post
    Well the fact that threat really doesn't play a role in tanking makes it nearly unbearable with these people I try to play with sometimes... They don't understand that the tank has to grab and hold a bit of aggro earlier on and that you focus one target.
    They have to worry about dps now but i wouldn't mine threat mattering again.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  20. #80
    Scarab Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oppressionix805 View Post
    gearing up for heroics in TBC was crappy, not much info was out... and ppl did not ever EVER look up boss fights for heroics they would go in thinking they could just figure it out, some heroics would just end up leaving before the first boss, the guilds that took the time to do everything right were the few that got to see illidan and kil jaeden, which not many guilds got to down during there pre nerf phase, my guild were in karazhan the majority of TBC because we had people not willing to pull in the time and effort to gear correctly and learn the fights, we had Karazhan on farm status mined you, but we kept having to rotate people in and out because tanks would not show and what not, the only difficult thing about TBC was having badies pull you down because they don't know how to gear correctly or play there class correctly
    If that is the case then you were just in a shit guild sorry.

    Leaders not competent enough to expand to 25 man and push their raiders into reading class/encounter guides and raiders not intelligent enough to do it themselves

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