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  1. #121
    Scarab Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daffan View Post
    Very late i'd say......
    As far as I remember the "welfare epics" became widespread when arena gear was added which was at the start of TBC and then became part of every sentence on the forums once they added badge gear and nerfed the shit out of every raid in 2.4

  2. #122
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koimagheul View Post
    actually Naj'entus was more a "beware of impalling spine" check and akama a "focus spiritbinders ffs" check.


    they were removed over time. though some people call wotlk "the beginning of the end", the increased accessibility actually began in tbc, when they removed attunements and started to hand over epics at every corner.
    It wasn't about "handing out epics", it was about opening the content to everyone that didn't have the time to progress through all previous tiers to get there. Which in fact did not detract from the experience of those forerunner guilds that got there on their own merits before everyone else. Just as today, people getting "free" LFR content does not detract from the experience of the heroic first guilds.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    No, a difficult boss doesn't mean gear check. By that logic all current hc bosses are gearchecks.

    - - - Updated - - -



    As I said before, I like the design of the entire guild getting resist gear. I hate the idea of individuals having to do it. Entire guild = group project, individuals = punishing 1-2 players with extra gold and work costs to help the guild.
    I wasn't saying they were difficult, in fact I remember the first boss with the spike and akama being very easy, my point was that beating fights was a lot more reliant on gear in general in TBC than they are nowadays

  4. #124
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    I wasn't saying they were difficult, in fact I remember the first boss with the spike and akama being very easy, my point was that beating fights was a lot more reliant on gear in general in TBC than they are nowadays
    ^ this. Attunement gating, much more stringent gear checks do not a "difficult" encounter make. The time investment required was much more significant, both to get the gear as well as the attunements. If you were raiding 5 days a week, you wouldn't have noticed. Everyone else did. Now everyone can do the same content regardless, and ONLY your raid's ability determines your success.

  5. #125
    No, unless we're talking about raiding. The general difficulty and time commitment of the game is far less and you are able to do a lot more in less time.
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  6. #126
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Time investment != hard
    Grinding != difficult

    Being dedicated does not mean you are automatically a good player, nor does not playing every day automatically signify you're a bad.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Fayth View Post
    I think the we could see the difference better if epics would be as hard to obtain as they were back in TBC. Or even better, in Vanilla.
    Reth!

    There was no reforging, so it was replacing 2-3 gems at most. And there was no mastery and haste, which are the only stats who have any impact on gameplay nowadays.

    Even for a healer getting fully shadow resist and socketing full spririt/int depending on class isn't difficult. I don't think you remember TBC correctly. You remember resistance gear and are throwing in other aspects of the game that weren't even around in that time to make it sound harder than it is.

    If you call 1 evening of farming mats to help your guild progress time consuming, well then you have a different idea of time consuming than me.
    You are correct, it was very simple. You could farm a resist set in a few hours and really, you only needed shadow for sharaz and nature/frost as tanks for Hydross. People love to rag (lololol) on Vanilla/TBC for farming and attunements, yet the average raider was way happier than now. When you kill a boss now it's a relief instead of an accomplishment.

  8. #128
    Ofc it's harder, older bosses have like 2 mechanics each. Some of the bosses now give me a headache just looking at the journal, never mind trying to pick it apart myself.

    For the record, i'm only counting actual raiding - So that's normal and heroic (Normal is even much harder than nearly everything pre wotlk). If they replaced ragnaros heroic with the version that we have now back in vanilla, I absolutely guarantee not a single sole on the planet would have finished that fight. Raiding pre wotlk was about luck and time commitment, you couldn't alter your gear loads and especially in vanilla, you didn't even have gems, on top of that you could get the wrong gear (Shaman gear for ally, pala for horde). It was NOTHING to do with difficulty, it was just committing the time to it and getting 40 people to know wtf to do. Like let's say the one mechanic is to move out of a patch of fire, that was the ONLY mechanic - but if one person fucked it up you wiped. That's the difficulty level of vanilla, it was stupidly easy but because there were so many people it was so easy to just have it go horribly.

    Honestly, I just wish WoW was more of an MMO - Before I got into WoW the main part of an MMO was about leveling up and meeting friends along the way, getting to level cap seemed like something that would NEVER happen because it took so long - I feel like WoW is wayyyy too focused on level cap content tbh, but I guess it's far too late to change that now.

    Although, in GENERAL, I would say that the game is easier. Raiding for one is a shit tonne more difficult when you're actually raiding and not just doing LFR and flexi - But heroics, scenarios, the whole leveling process - Everything is extremely easy. I mean, the main reason I don't want to gear alts is because of how much it just puts me to sleep, idm if it takes a long time or a little time - The timeless isle is nice and all but either way it's easy as shit and boring. I miss being able to die while leveling especially
    Last edited by Zypherz; 2013-10-06 at 11:45 AM.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by iggie View Post
    Reth!


    You are correct, it was very simple. You could farm a resist set in a few hours and really, you only needed shadow for sharaz and nature/frost as tanks for Hydross. People love to rag (lololol) on Vanilla/TBC for farming and attunements, yet the average raider was way happier than now. When you kill a boss now it's a relief instead of an accomplishment.
    How do you know that the average raider was happier?
    You're right except for 2 things.

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  10. #130
    The heroic modes are definitely hard. You need to cap hps/dps/dtps to incredible levels to manage to get kills undergeared.

    Flex mode is better as I expected. I can only raid 1 day a week and not every week on the same day. It's perfect for me. You have to be careful though. If you enter Flex with a bunch of noobs you will get stumped. Thus I try to catch a spot in a experienced group.

    I tried LFR. Lol, please don't waste my time!

    I'm probably one of those that grew up with WoW. I'm playing it since the beta with a one-year timeout for exams. I raid-leaded 40man raids in classic and 25man raids in TBC.

    Times have changed. Other things are more important now.

    The game itself is not harder per se. It is just more complex. There are alot more details now.
    Last edited by zorker; 2013-10-06 at 11:52 AM.
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  11. #131
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    Raiding surely has become a LOT more stressful than it was in TBC.

    I bet that's mainly because
    a) I'm hopping around with ~40% haste rating now as opposed to neigh none in TBC
    b) Bosses just have way more abilities.

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  12. #132
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    Nope.

    Just check the number of wipes and how long it took for topguilds to clear the latest content.

    Guilds needed much more wipes and much more time (weeks) to clear the latest stuff back then.

    Why? Because bosses were all much more demanding gearchecks... even if you did perfect HPS and DPS you wouldn't be able to down the bosses if you didn't have the gear. Nowadays, I'd say heroic bosses are very undertuned, they all tend to get cleared in the same week as the dungeon becomes available...

    I've been a hardcore raider (world top #1-3) in TBC and I've briefly ran with a hardcore raidguild in MoP too. My opinion: TBC was harder.
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  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    Having to manage mana as a caster dps...most dps would break down in tears nowadays if they would have to learn how to manage mana.
    Don't forget about threat. Most players don't even know what that is anymore. Managing it for one mob would be hard for them, dealing with threat on multi target encounter would be impossible for them.
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  14. #134
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Nope.

    Just check the number of wipes and how long it took for topguilds to clear the latest content.

    Guilds needed much more wipes and much more time (weeks) to clear the latest stuff back then.

    Why? Because bosses were all much more demanding gearchecks... even if you did perfect HPS and DPS you wouldn't be able to down the bosses if you didn't have the gear. Nowadays, I'd say heroic bosses are very undertuned, they all tend to get cleared in the same week as the dungeon becomes available...

    I've been a hardcore raider (world top #1-3) in TBC and I've briefly ran with a hardcore raidguild in MoP too. My opinion: TBC was harder.
    "Not having the gear" is not "hard". And oh look, more grandstanding anonymously on a site xD
    You actually reinforced that wrong point with your first sentence too - number of wipes / TIME IT TOOK. Time investment != hard.
    And if the number of wipes was due to too low gear, that does not mean the encounter itself was too hard. It was just tuned for higher gear.

    It's a question of whether u agree with the gear grind or not - to a point it is necessary. In TBC, it went overboard and was quickly corrected thereafter. That, however, does not make a fight hard.

  15. #135
    Immortal True Anarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    "Not having the gear" is not "hard". And oh look, more grandstanding anonymously on a site xD
    You actually reinforced that wrong point with your first sentence too - number of wipes / TIME IT TOOK. Time investment != hard.
    And if the number of wipes was due to too low gear, that does not mean the encounter itself was too hard. It was just tuned for higher gear.

    It's a question of whether u agree with the gear grind or not - to a point it is necessary. In TBC, it went overboard and was quickly corrected thereafter. That, however, does not make a fight hard.
    Needing more tries and time is the very definition of harder as far as raidguilds are concerned.
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  16. #136
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    I dunno.. I cant imagine a LFR group being able to down Kael or leotharis the blind

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  17. #137
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Needing more tries and time is the very definition of harder as far as raidguilds are concerned.
    Nonsense.

    Let's put this into perspective:

    a) You throw yourself at a fight 150 times, yet wipe to enrage or unhealable damage. You farm for another 1-2 IDs. You then beat the fight in another 10-20 pulls.
    b) You throw yourself at a fight 150 times, fail to beat it due to mechanics and mistakes. Yet you beat it before farm.

    Which example is the harder fight? Example A is the stereotypical progress fight in TBC, because mechanics were EASY. Example B is a modern heroic fight, because having the gear is the BASIS, the fight is the challenge.

  18. #138
    Not in a sense that you nowadays get the new spells immediately when you ding without having to visit the trainer, not to mention those late spell ranks...

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisisvacant View Post
    Hydross, Shahrazz, and maybe A'lar if your tanks were otherwise squishy.
    Ideally, you also had a Warlock with a fire res set for Leotheras.
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  20. #140
    Immortal True Anarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Nonsense.

    Let's put this into perspective:

    a) You throw yourself at a fight 150 times, yet wipe to enrage or unhealable damage. You farm for another 1-2 IDs. You then beat the fight in another 10-20 pulls.
    b) You throw yourself at a fight 150 times, fail to beat it due to mechanics and mistakes. Yet you beat it before farm.

    Which example is the harder fight? Example A is the stereotypical progress fight in TBC, because mechanics were EASY. Example B is a modern heroic fight, because having the gear is the BASIS, the fight is the challenge.
    When you make the example too black and white it becomes impractical.

    The "3-4 week" TBC progress bosses still had people needing to learn mechanics and dieing to mechanics regularly, while they were learning the fight. The truth is that you couldn't always pinpoint exactly what was going wrong or wether it was just purely because of gear that you were having a hard time. In my memory there also were a lot more insta-kill mechanics in most TBC bossfights compared to MoP (and less combat rezzes).

    When you're trying to down a boss, you're trying to down a boss, you're not just going 'oh maybe we'll come back next week when our gear is better', no. So the 500 wipe progress bosses from TBC will come across as much harder than the 50-wipe bosses of MoP. It's about how the raiders experience the content. Even if something would be 'objectively' harder, it wouldn't matter if it does not come across that way to the raiders.
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